The intersection of internet wars sometimes brings interesting observations to mind, and today one such intersection really spoke to me. Recently Jasper over at Jasper’s wardrobe has made some pretty controversial things about gender and transwomen. From “just your average straight white guy with a cunt“:
“I do not recognize any claims to the truth of a gender. All genders are constructed. From this standpoint I see hormones and SRS as body modifications. That is great. Tattoos piercings and hormones. You have control over your own body. But I consider someone who explores a gender outside the binary to have an equally ‘true’ gender as someone who uses medical technology to take on a ‘classical’ gender.
He is correct that gender is a social construct. Simply by looking at the accepted definition of gender, we know that.
gender – the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex.
They are traits that are typically associated (by society), or implied by visual or auditory gender cues. When we see a baby and they are wearing pink, in this culture that is a cue that the baby is a girl. What Jasper is talking about above is gender identity, not gender itself.
gender identity – The degree to which a person identifies as male, female, or some combination. It is the internal framework, constructed over time, which enables an individual to organise a self-concept and to perform socially in regards to their perceived sex and gender.”
Gender identity is an internal framework, but gender itself is an external one. As a friend of mine says, “gender should not be used as shorthand.” Simply because you claim a the gender identity of a woman, doesn’t mean you are gendered as one. I identified as a woman before I actually was perceived by the world as one. If the world sees your gender/sexual orientation as male/heterosexual, your experience and privilege will be based on that.
transgender – of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person’s sex at birth.transsexual – a person who strongly identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance (as by changing the external sex organs)
In the same way that gender and gender identity aren’t synonymous, neither are transsexual and transgender. Transgender is an umbrella term, of which transsexuals fall under. But also under the umbrella are: cross-dresser, transvestite, androgynes, genderqueer, and drag kings & queens. Jasper claims to be a transgender woman. While I agree that Jasper may be “transgender” because of who he “identifies with”, saying he is a woman isn’t factually correct. Gendering is done through presentation. In his videos he neither appears to be transitioning away from a male gender or moving towards a female gender. This isn’t a smear, it’s an observation based on the meaning of the words.
Veronica over at Women In Love writes:
“My plea to the trans community has always been for coming together and to have understanding and solidarity as a goal for all LGBTQI2-S people. I hope that both camps in the trans community and all subgroups in the LGBTQI2-S fold, will eventually find a place to meet in respect for one another. This is the example we should be setting for the greater community and for future generations.
It reminds me of this line from The Pretenders ‘Waste Not, Want Not’ – ‘The life you take is your political voice.’ I’m proud of who I am as a person, and I live with the choices I have made. If someone insults me, I just walk away. I don’t want to engage in destructive trans-identity political arguments.”
While I agree with Veronica that unity is needed, I think the discussion about what a “transgender woman” is, is important. People of color are offended when white people speak in their name. Women are offended when men speak for them. When someone that is appropriating my identity or speaking in my name, I’m offended.
cissexism – The belief that transsexual genders are less legitimate than, and mere imitations of, cissexual genders.
Speaking with authority on cissexism of trans-women while still living in a male gender, is offensive to me. It belittles the memory of all those that have died because of their gender presentation and the lives of those who are going through gender transition. While I accept Jasper’s gender identity, I will not stand quietly while someone belittles those who pay a hefty price for being who they are.
I do not understand why we do not respect each other differences and attack that who wish to identify themselves differently
Until we can stop bickering over stuff like this we stand no chance of getting anywhere with the issues that are actually important.
We are all different and fall over a huge spectrum of gray amongst a world of black and white gender. Until we can respect each other and realize such, why should other people do the same?
Until we can stop bickering over stuff like this we stand no chance of getting anywhere with the issues that are actually important.
We are all different and fall over a huge spectrum of gray amongst a world of black and white gender. Until we can respect each other and realize such, why should other people do the same?
Until we can stop bickering over stuff like this we stand no chance of getting anywhere with the issues that are actually important.
We are all different and fall over a huge spectrum of gray amongst a world of black and white gender. Until we can respect each other and realize such, why should other people do the same?
So, you agree with Julie Bindel? That is her position. That gender is socially constructed.
And if you think that gender is socially constructed, then you would have to agree with her that transsexuals should be forced into psychotherapy. After all, there is nothing biological that defines our gender, so we must just choose to think we are all women.
That is what it means to say that gender is socially constructed. That we start out as a blank slate and we learn to think we are men or women. And that means that we can be corrected by therapy and not surgery.
Gender is inherent. People can choose to rebel against it, and many do, but that does not change the fact that some are born with a gender that does not match their body. It is not about identities, but about reality.
So, you agree with Julie Bindel? That is her position. That gender is socially constructed.
And if you think that gender is socially constructed, then you would have to agree with her that transsexuals should be forced into psychotherapy. After all, there is nothing biological that defines our gender, so we must just choose to think we are all women.
That is what it means to say that gender is socially constructed. That we start out as a blank slate and we learn to think we are men or women. And that means that we can be corrected by therapy and not surgery.
Gender is inherent. People can choose to rebel against it, and many do, but that does not change the fact that some are born with a gender that does not match their body. It is not about identities, but about reality.
The idea that a person would object to another person changing their gender seems ridiculous to me. While it’s definitely a more serious change than getting a tattoo, both need to be met with equal understanding.
One of the topics that the film “Soulmates” explores is how a sex change operation affects family and friends. Hopefully one day people will be more open to the concept that just because you are born a man/woman doesn’t mean you want to be one.
So tell me, how do you change your gender? I thought gender is what is between your ears, not between your legs. If one can change their gender, then why not just change it back to your birth gender?
I didn’t change my gender. I changed my sex. My gender was not a matter of choice. I was born with a female gender, even though my sex was male. From what I have seen, gender is immutable. You might be born a male, but have a female gender, or vice versa. Or you might be born with a male gender and a male body. Or vice versa.
Now, someone might choose to express a gender that is not consistent with their gender, but that does not change their gender.
The idea that a person would object to another person changing their gender seems ridiculous to me. While it’s definitely a more serious change than getting a tattoo, both need to be met with equal understanding.
One of the topics that the film “Soulmates” explores is how a sex change operation affects family and friends. Hopefully one day people will be more open to the concept that just because you are born a man/woman doesn’t mean you want to be one.
The idea that a person would object to another person changing their gender seems ridiculous to me. While it’s definitely a more serious change than getting a tattoo, both need to be met with equal understanding.
One of the topics that the film “Soulmates” explores is how a sex change operation affects family and friends. Hopefully one day people will be more open to the concept that just because you are born a man/woman doesn’t mean you want to be one.
So tell me, how do you change your gender? I thought gender is what is between your ears, not between your legs. If one can change their gender, then why not just change it back to your birth gender?
I didn’t change my gender. I changed my sex. My gender was not a matter of choice. I was born with a female gender, even though my sex was male. From what I have seen, gender is immutable. You might be born a male, but have a female gender, or vice versa. Or you might be born with a male gender and a male body. Or vice versa.
Now, someone might choose to express a gender that is not consistent with their gender, but that does not change their gender.
Unfortunately, as much as you might wish otherwise, there are no universally accepted definitions for many of these words You might find a definition you prefer and then seek to force that definition on others to bolster your argument, but that does not make your position valid.
Being oppressed, or more accurately, fantasizing that you are being oppressed, for being perceived as a woman does not make one a woman. Nor does simply being perceived as a woman. I have seen draq queens that are quite credible, at least in terms of appearance, as women. But they clearly are not.
No, it is neurology that makes one a woman. Nothing more, nothing less. If that is not there, nothing can change this. That is at the heart of the transgender delusion…that one can simply become a woman by dressing up, or even by simply claiming to be one.
Unfortunately, as much as you might wish otherwise, there are no universally accepted definitions for many of these words You might find a definition you prefer and then seek to force that definition on others to bolster your argument, but that does not make your position valid.
Being oppressed, or more accurately, fantasizing that you are being oppressed, for being perceived as a woman does not make one a woman. Nor does simply being perceived as a woman. I have seen draq queens that are quite credible, at least in terms of appearance, as women. But they clearly are not.
No, it is neurology that makes one a woman. Nothing more, nothing less. If that is not there, nothing can change this. That is at the heart of the transgender delusion…that one can simply become a woman by dressing up, or even by simply claiming to be one.
Unfortunately, as much as you might wish otherwise, there are no universally accepted definitions for many of these words You might find a definition you prefer and then seek to force that definition on others to bolster your argument, but that does not make your position valid.
Being oppressed, or more accurately, fantasizing that you are being oppressed, for being perceived as a woman does not make one a woman. Nor does simply being perceived as a woman. I have seen draq queens that are quite credible, at least in terms of appearance, as women. But they clearly are not.
No, it is neurology that makes one a woman. Nothing more, nothing less. If that is not there, nothing can change this. That is at the heart of the transgender delusion…that one can simply become a woman by dressing up, or even by simply claiming to be one.
🙂 Leigh, there’s no type like me :p. I’m certainly not without my failings, that’s for sure. But I’m personally a fan of creativity. 😉
🙂 Leigh, there’s no type like me :p. I’m certainly not without my failings, that’s for sure. But I’m personally a fan of creativity. 😉
whoa .. marti took down my post! I guess that a hard look at the reality of gender theory in the real world, it’s total absurdity in real life terms was more than marti and others could bear to hear. Censor much?
If you would use a legit email addy, you would have gotten this email:
oh thats right .. I forgot that might be offensive to you …
hey do me a favor and post it back without the finger eh !
actually thats agood email, I just dont get the actual emails and I dont know why . 😉
I’m personally a fan of it, I just don’t think this is the appropriate forum for it 😉 If you want to repost the comment (minus the finger), I’ve put it in a text file here: http://www.transadvocate.com/finger/finger.txt
I’ll keep it up for a day. You can copy and paste it back 🙂
Thanks for saving that Marti .. I went ahead and reprinted it over at http://cassandraspeaks.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/transsexual-war-of-independence/#comment-63
Glad you were able to laugh a little. So many of the TG types have absolutly no sense of humor … another failing in a long list of failings ..
🙂
whoa .. marti took down my post! I guess that a hard look at the reality of gender theory in the real world, it’s total absurdity in real life terms was more than marti and others could bear to hear. Censor much?
If you would use a legit email addy, you would have gotten this email:
oh thats right .. I forgot that might be offensive to you …
hey do me a favor and post it back without the finger eh !
actually thats agood email, I just dont get the actual emails and I dont know why . 😉
I’m personally a fan of it, I just don’t think this is the appropriate forum for it 😉 If you want to repost the comment (minus the finger), I’ve put it in a text file here: http://www.transadvocate.com/finger/finger.txt
I’ll keep it up for a day. You can copy and paste it back 🙂
Thanks for saving that Marti .. I went ahead and reprinted it over at http://cassandraspeaks.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/transsexual-war-of-independence/#comment-63
Glad you were able to laugh a little. So many of the TG types have absolutly no sense of humor … another failing in a long list of failings ..
🙂
ROFL
ROFL
Ok, mhh… are you all seriously suggesting that gender-queerness – meaning being neither male or female – is just politically motivated stuff?
You SERIOUSLY don’t think that you can be neither male nor female? I mean, are you seriously that discriminatory? Why? Wasn’t that the same argument the conservatives used against transsexuals? That you can’t be a man/woman but psychologically be a woman/man?
And, no, gender-queers AREN’T really different from classical transsexuals. NO WOMAN ON THIS EARTH IS COMPLETELY FEMALE, NO MAN ON THIS EARTH IS COMPLETELY MALE, SO YOU TOO AREN’T FEMALE. EVERY person on this earth is genderqueer. Ask ANY psychologist on this planet and he/she will tell you that gender is simply culturally motivated. Just try to define male or female, and you will find that there’s actually no such thing as a female or a male person.
So, discriminate all you want to make yourself feel “real”, but you will never be as happy as people who’ve figured out the fact that gender is a spectrum, transsexuals are lying to themselves about being completely, 100 percent female/male and all that heteronormative stuff. Just get real. It’s not that hard.
Yes, crossdressers don’t have anything to do with you. BUT, and that’s a big but as you can see, I was also diagnosed as gender identity disordered by a psychologist after one and a half year of real time test, and gender-queer isn’t just some political shit. It’s what EVERYONE is. Think about it. Let go of the social pressure unfortunately put on you and be free of any fear. Gender is simply a spectrum and any person is somewhere on that scale. That’s all it is.
You’ve got your definitions mixed up.
genderqueer – “a person who perceives their gender as being neither that of a man nor that of a woman but outside of the gender binary.”
Gender is a social construction. Male and female denote sexual reproductive physiology. You can be intersex, your and genetic makeup can be a spectrum, but even intersex people are born with some reproductive physiology.
You’re mixing up biology and social construction. Are you claiming that psychologists will tell you that male and female reproductive physiology is simply a matter of cultural motivation?
Okay, first off, I am not “suggesting” anything. I am saying that “genderqueer” is pretty much political. Oh, I suppose there might be a few doing it for a lark, and even in a few rare cases, a person might have some form of delusion, but it is not remotely a valid concept.
Discriminatory? That is hilarious. People are either male or female. There are rare cases of intersex where things are not completely clear, but true hermaphrodites are extremely rare, and some question if they exist at all.
Now, as to your claim that there are no male or female people, well….as I was saying, some people might actually be delusional.
You will have to excuse me, but I really find it impossible to take any of this seriously. As I observed earlier, this sort of thing is like saying the “earth is flat.” You may sincerely believe it, but arguing with you over it is a waste of time.
Ok, mhh… are you all seriously suggesting that gender-queerness – meaning being neither male or female – is just politically motivated stuff?
You SERIOUSLY don’t think that you can be neither male nor female? I mean, are you seriously that discriminatory? Why? Wasn’t that the same argument the conservatives used against transsexuals? That you can’t be a man/woman but psychologically be a woman/man?
And, no, gender-queers AREN’T really different from classical transsexuals. NO WOMAN ON THIS EARTH IS COMPLETELY FEMALE, NO MAN ON THIS EARTH IS COMPLETELY MALE, SO YOU TOO AREN’T FEMALE. EVERY person on this earth is genderqueer. Ask ANY psychologist on this planet and he/she will tell you that gender is simply culturally motivated. Just try to define male or female, and you will find that there’s actually no such thing as a female or a male person.
So, discriminate all you want to make yourself feel “real”, but you will never be as happy as people who’ve figured out the fact that gender is a spectrum, transsexuals are lying to themselves about being completely, 100 percent female/male and all that heteronormative stuff. Just get real. It’s not that hard.
Yes, crossdressers don’t have anything to do with you. BUT, and that’s a big but as you can see, I was also diagnosed as gender identity disordered by a psychologist after one and a half year of real time test, and gender-queer isn’t just some political shit. It’s what EVERYONE is. Think about it. Let go of the social pressure unfortunately put on you and be free of any fear. Gender is simply a spectrum and any person is somewhere on that scale. That’s all it is.
You’ve got your definitions mixed up.
genderqueer – “a person who perceives their gender as being neither that of a man nor that of a woman but outside of the gender binary.”Gender is a social construction. Male and female denote sexual reproductive physiology. You can be intersex, your and genetic makeup can be a spectrum, but even intersex people are born with some reproductive physiology.
You’re mixing up biology and social construction. Are you claiming that psychologists will tell you that male and female reproductive physiology is simply a matter of cultural motivation?
Okay, first off, I am not “suggesting” anything. I am saying that “genderqueer” is pretty much political. Oh, I suppose there might be a few doing it for a lark, and even in a few rare cases, a person might have some form of delusion, but it is not remotely a valid concept.
Discriminatory? That is hilarious. People are either male or female. There are rare cases of intersex where things are not completely clear, but true hermaphrodites are extremely rare, and some question if they exist at all.
Now, as to your claim that there are no male or female people, well….as I was saying, some people might actually be delusional.
You will have to excuse me, but I really find it impossible to take any of this seriously. As I observed earlier, this sort of thing is like saying the “earth is flat.” You may sincerely believe it, but arguing with you over it is a waste of time.
Well, javier…Miss Jasper Gregory most assuredly agrees with you.
You’re in perfect company.
(Those transgender…what cards they are.)
Well put.
Well, javier…Miss Jasper Gregory most assuredly agrees with you.
You’re in perfect company.
(Those transgender…what cards they are.)
Well put.
“… It is a choice. As is “genderqueer.” No one is intrinsically gender queer. It is something people choose to do, usually as a sort of political statement.”
-just jennifer
“no one is a woman born transsexual. it is a choice.no one is intrinsicly born transsexual.it is something people choose to do”
hey,any right wing christian will tell you that.
i rest my case.
(yeah, i’m the closed minded one here.)
goodby and goodluck.
j
javier, you’re making a categorical mistake here. Since gender (not gender identity) is a social construct, it cannot be innate. Transsexualism, on the other hand, is either a medical or psychological condition that a lot of science points to as innate.
And when you’re pointing to choice, on either side of the argument, you need to look at desire verses action. You can be gay and never have sex. Engaging in sexual activity is always a choice. Desiring same sex encounters? Not so much.
The idea that gender is a social construct has been totally destroyed by science. And, the idea that “gender is a social construct” and that “transsexualism is innate” or inherently contradictory.
Yes, choosing whether or not to deal with being transsexual is, in a sense, a choice. Just as choosing whether or not to treat diabetes is a choice. One can chose to not do either, but in both cases, the consequences of choosing to not treat the condition will be very unpleasant and will likely result in eventual death.
Really? Totally destroyed? If so, I’d love for you to provide that data.
Well, I could, of course just point to the disaster that resulted from John Money’s little experiment that was supposed to prove that it is all just a social construct. You know, the one that resulted in David Reimer’s suicide?
But let’s start with some established facts:
At one day old, boys look at mobiles longer than newborn girls.
At 12 months, girls look at human faces longer. Researchers at Cambridge found that girls look at faces longer than boys.
The same Cambridge team found that one-year-old boys preferred watching a film showing cars to one showing a person. Girls showed the opposite preference.
At a few hours old girls are more sensitive than boys to touch. Tests between the sexes of tactile sensitivity in the hands and fingers produce differences so striking that sometimes male and female scores do not even overlap, with the most sensitive boy feeling less than the least sensitive girl.
When it comes to sound, infant females are much less tolerant one researcher believes that they may hear noises as being twice as loud as do males. Baby girls become irritated and anxious about noise, pain or discomfort more readily than do baby boys.
At four months, most baby girls can distinguish photographs of people they know from photographs of strangers; baby boys cannot.
Researchers found three- and four-year-old boys to be better at mentally rotating figures than girls of the same age.
Doreen Kimura, the co-author of the 1994 paper, Cognitive Pattern in Men and Women Is Influenced by Fluctuations in Sex Hormones, for the past few decades, it has been ideologically fashionable to insist that these behavioral differences are minimal and are the consequence of variations in experience during development before and after adolescence. Evidence accumulated more recently, however, suggests that the effects of sex hormones on brain organization occur so early in life that from the start the environment is acting on differently wired brains in boys and girls.
� Boys outnumber girls four to one in remedial reading classes.
When asked to judge when someone might have said something potentially hurtful, girls score higher from at least seven years old. Women are also more sensitive to facial expressions. They are better at decoding non-verbal communication, picking up subtle nuances from tone of voice or facial expression or judging a person’s character, writes Simon Baron-Cohen in an article in The Guardian. He writes further that men tend to show direct aggression such as hitting whereas women show covert or relational aggression, such as gossip or verbal insults. His thesis in the book, “The Essential Difference: The Truth about the Male and Female Brain,” is that women’s brains are designed for empathy whereas men’s are built for understanding and building systems.
The amygdala, the brain’s emotion-control center, shows significantly higher levels of activity in males viewing sexual visual stimuli than females viewing the same images, according to a study led by Emory University psychologists Stephan Hamann and Kim Wallen.
Women might have better short-term memories. They can store greater amounts of irrelevant and random information than men, who seem to need the information to be organized in order to remember it.
Doreen Kimura writes in “Sex Differences in the Brain” that men tend to perform better than women on certain spatial tasks. They do well on tests that involve mentally rotating an object or manipulating it in some fashion, such as imagining turning a three-dimensional object or determining where the holes punched in a folded piece of paper will fall when the paper is unfolded. Men also are more accurate than women at target-directed motor skills, such as guiding or intercepting projectiles. They do better at matching lines with identical slopes. And men tend to do better than women on tests of mathematical reasoning.
On the other hand, Women tend to perform better than men on tests of perceptual speed in which subjects must rapidly identify matching items … When reading a story, paragraph or a list of unrelated words, women demonstrate better recall. Women do better on precision manual tasks that is, those involving fine motor coordination such as placing the pegs in holes on a board. And women do better than men on mathematical calculation tests.
Vanderbilt researchers find that among a sample of 40,000 gifted 12- to 14-year-olds who took the SAT, about twice as many boys as girls scored above 500 on the math section; four times as many scored above 600; and 13 times as many boys than girls scored above 700. Boys and girls performed approximately the same on the verbal portion.
UCLA researchers performed brain scans on people who scored in the 99th percentile on the math portion of the SAT and found that as they worked on problems, the men relied on grey matter in the cerebral and parietal cortices, whereas women showed more activity in areas with white matter, sparking the observation by Richard Haier, a professor of psychology at the UCLA Medical School that �Maybe the women are doing the math using the white matter.
Haier and his colleagues at the University of New Mexico and the UCI Brain Imaging Center found that men have about six-and-a-half times the amount of gray matter related to general intelligence than women, and women have nearly 10 times the amount of white matter related to intelligence than men. These findings suggest that human evolution has created two different types of brains designed for equally intelligent behavior, Haier said. Gray matter is used for information processing, while white matter consists of the connections between processing centers.
Rex Jung, a co-author of the study, suggested that this difference in white and gray matter between the sexes might help to explain why men excel at local processing tasks while women tend to be good at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions.
In this same study it was found that 84 percent of gray-matter regions and 86 percent of white-matter regions involved with intellectual performance in women were found in the brain’s frontal lobes, compared to 45 percent and zero percent for males. Thus, most of women’s brain matter involved in intelligence is in the frontal lobes, whereas the grey and white matter involved in men’s intelligence is distributed throughout brain regions. The researchers remarked that this finding that women’s intelligence processing is concentrated in the frontal lobe is consistent with findings that frontal brain injuries can hurt women’s cognitive performance more than men’s.
A similar study at McMaster University found that women have up to 15 percent more brain-cell density in certain areas of the frontal lobe, which controls so-called higher mental processes including judgment, personality, planning and working memory.
Parts of the corpus callosum, a major neural system connecting the two hemispheres, as well as the anterior commissure, another connecting structure, are larger in women, which might enable better communication between hemispheres.
Men seem to have greater asymmetry between brain hemispheres, and damage to one hemisphere often has more of an effect on cognition than a similar injury in women.
Canadian researchers found prenatal testosterone levels were positively correlated with skills on a mental rotation test (imagining objects being rotated).
Males with IHH (idiopathic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism) have small testes (and therefore low levels of testosterone) and are worse at spatial reasoning.
Male babies with androgen insensitivity (AI) syndrome are also worse at spatial reasoning.
Females with CAH (congenital adrenal hyperplasia) have high levels of androgens and enhanced spatial systemizing.
Researcher Elizabeth Hampson of the University of Western Ontario found that women’s performance on certain mental tasks varied throughout their menstrual cycles. High levels of estrogen were correlated with decreased spatial ability but increased speech and manual skills.
And. perhaps most telling. there is the simple example of transsexuals. Many of us were subjected to intense efforts to “correct” our “gender.” All that socialization had no effect on our gender, and only caused us to be extremely stressed and to suffer serious emotional distress.
You’re playing a shell game here. I never claimed there aren’t differences in physiology. I stated that definitionally there is a difference between social identification (gender) and sexual identification. It wasn’t your “gender” that was trying to be corrected, but your gender or sex identity.
You make this point better than I can. Parents dressing you in typically male clothing, buying you boy toys, and calling you by a male name gender you male, regardless of your innate sexual identity.
You are either trying to play word games, or you truly have no idea what these things actually mean. When people say that gender is “socially constructed” they mean that we all start out as a blank slate, so to speak. They mean that if you were to raise a male child, from birth, to be a girl, he would be a girl. Of course, he would still physically be a boy, but mentally, he would be a girl. Or vice versa. They mean that the myriad psychological and emotional differences in men and women are all just “socialization.” It is a nice way of dismissing the idea that transsexuals are, in any serious way, really the “gender” that they feel themselves to be. Of course, science has shown this to be complete bunk. “Social construction of gender” was, and to a point, still is, very popular with radical feminists who want to believe that there are no differences in men and women. It is also popular with some extremist transgender activists who wish to believe that all one has to do to become a woman is to say the magic words, “I am a woman.” Thus we have silliness like Japser Gregory.
We don’t “gender” people. We may presume we know someone’s gender, but we can be wrong. True “gender” is rooted in biology, and while it can differ from sex, it congruent in the overwhelming majority of cases.
It’s not word games to actually take the words how they are DEFINED or are used commonly. Gender identity is what you are describing, definitionally.
I do agree with you that what rad fems say about gender and sex identification is bunk. Anyone that’s trans that’s ever been on hormones can tell you as much. But rad fems will also lay claim to oppression based on having a vagina. The fact is that if you are seen by society as a woman, you are treated like one, then you are oppressed like one… vagina or not.
How words are defined and used matters, and this shows in this post. I agree with you on gender identity. But saying that gender isn’t socially constructed is betraying the definition of the word itself and how it is defined today.
ROTFL! Well, you do have a right to be wrong.
“… It is a choice. As is “genderqueer.” No one is intrinsically gender queer. It is something people choose to do, usually as a sort of political statement.”
-just jennifer
“no one is a woman born transsexual. it is a choice.no one is intrinsicly born transsexual.it is something people choose to do”
hey,any right wing christian will tell you that.
i rest my case.
(yeah, i’m the closed minded one here.)
goodby and goodluck.
j
javier, you’re making a categorical mistake here. Since gender (not gender identity) is a social construct, it cannot be innate. Transsexualism, on the other hand, is either a medical or psychological condition that a lot of science points to as innate.
And when you’re pointing to choice, on either side of the argument, you need to look at desire verses action. You can be gay and never have sex. Engaging in sexual activity is always a choice. Desiring same sex encounters? Not so much.
The idea that gender is a social construct has been totally destroyed by science. And, the idea that “gender is a social construct” and that “transsexualism is innate” or inherently contradictory.
Yes, choosing whether or not to deal with being transsexual is, in a sense, a choice. Just as choosing whether or not to treat diabetes is a choice. One can chose to not do either, but in both cases, the consequences of choosing to not treat the condition will be very unpleasant and will likely result in eventual death.
Really? Totally destroyed? If so, I’d love for you to provide that data.
Well, I could, of course just point to the disaster that resulted from John Money’s little experiment that was supposed to prove that it is all just a social construct. You know, the one that resulted in David Reimer’s suicide?
But let’s start with some established facts:
At one day old, boys look at mobiles longer than newborn girls.
At 12 months, girls look at human faces longer. Researchers at Cambridge found that girls look at faces longer than boys.
The same Cambridge team found that one-year-old boys preferred watching a film showing cars to one showing a person. Girls showed the opposite preference.
At a few hours old girls are more sensitive than boys to touch. Tests between the sexes of tactile sensitivity in the hands and fingers produce differences so striking that sometimes male and female scores do not even overlap, with the most sensitive boy feeling less than the least sensitive girl.
When it comes to sound, infant females are much less tolerant one researcher believes that they may hear noises as being twice as loud as do males. Baby girls become irritated and anxious about noise, pain or discomfort more readily than do baby boys.
At four months, most baby girls can distinguish photographs of people they know from photographs of strangers; baby boys cannot.
Researchers found three- and four-year-old boys to be better at mentally rotating figures than girls of the same age.
Doreen Kimura, the co-author of the 1994 paper, Cognitive Pattern in Men and Women Is Influenced by Fluctuations in Sex Hormones, for the past few decades, it has been ideologically fashionable to insist that these behavioral differences are minimal and are the consequence of variations in experience during development before and after adolescence. Evidence accumulated more recently, however, suggests that the effects of sex hormones on brain organization occur so early in life that from the start the environment is acting on differently wired brains in boys and girls.
� Boys outnumber girls four to one in remedial reading classes.
When asked to judge when someone might have said something potentially hurtful, girls score higher from at least seven years old. Women are also more sensitive to facial expressions. They are better at decoding non-verbal communication, picking up subtle nuances from tone of voice or facial expression or judging a person’s character, writes Simon Baron-Cohen in an article in The Guardian. He writes further that men tend to show direct aggression such as hitting whereas women show covert or relational aggression, such as gossip or verbal insults. His thesis in the book, “The Essential Difference: The Truth about the Male and Female Brain,” is that women’s brains are designed for empathy whereas men’s are built for understanding and building systems.
The amygdala, the brain’s emotion-control center, shows significantly higher levels of activity in males viewing sexual visual stimuli than females viewing the same images, according to a study led by Emory University psychologists Stephan Hamann and Kim Wallen.
Women might have better short-term memories. They can store greater amounts of irrelevant and random information than men, who seem to need the information to be organized in order to remember it.
Doreen Kimura writes in “Sex Differences in the Brain” that men tend to perform better than women on certain spatial tasks. They do well on tests that involve mentally rotating an object or manipulating it in some fashion, such as imagining turning a three-dimensional object or determining where the holes punched in a folded piece of paper will fall when the paper is unfolded. Men also are more accurate than women at target-directed motor skills, such as guiding or intercepting projectiles. They do better at matching lines with identical slopes. And men tend to do better than women on tests of mathematical reasoning.
On the other hand, Women tend to perform better than men on tests of perceptual speed in which subjects must rapidly identify matching items … When reading a story, paragraph or a list of unrelated words, women demonstrate better recall. Women do better on precision manual tasks that is, those involving fine motor coordination such as placing the pegs in holes on a board. And women do better than men on mathematical calculation tests.
Vanderbilt researchers find that among a sample of 40,000 gifted 12- to 14-year-olds who took the SAT, about twice as many boys as girls scored above 500 on the math section; four times as many scored above 600; and 13 times as many boys than girls scored above 700. Boys and girls performed approximately the same on the verbal portion.
UCLA researchers performed brain scans on people who scored in the 99th percentile on the math portion of the SAT and found that as they worked on problems, the men relied on grey matter in the cerebral and parietal cortices, whereas women showed more activity in areas with white matter, sparking the observation by Richard Haier, a professor of psychology at the UCLA Medical School that �Maybe the women are doing the math using the white matter.
Haier and his colleagues at the University of New Mexico and the UCI Brain Imaging Center found that men have about six-and-a-half times the amount of gray matter related to general intelligence than women, and women have nearly 10 times the amount of white matter related to intelligence than men. These findings suggest that human evolution has created two different types of brains designed for equally intelligent behavior, Haier said. Gray matter is used for information processing, while white matter consists of the connections between processing centers.
Rex Jung, a co-author of the study, suggested that this difference in white and gray matter between the sexes might help to explain why men excel at local processing tasks while women tend to be good at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions.
In this same study it was found that 84 percent of gray-matter regions and 86 percent of white-matter regions involved with intellectual performance in women were found in the brain’s frontal lobes, compared to 45 percent and zero percent for males. Thus, most of women’s brain matter involved in intelligence is in the frontal lobes, whereas the grey and white matter involved in men’s intelligence is distributed throughout brain regions. The researchers remarked that this finding that women’s intelligence processing is concentrated in the frontal lobe is consistent with findings that frontal brain injuries can hurt women’s cognitive performance more than men’s.
A similar study at McMaster University found that women have up to 15 percent more brain-cell density in certain areas of the frontal lobe, which controls so-called higher mental processes including judgment, personality, planning and working memory.
Parts of the corpus callosum, a major neural system connecting the two hemispheres, as well as the anterior commissure, another connecting structure, are larger in women, which might enable better communication between hemispheres.
Men seem to have greater asymmetry between brain hemispheres, and damage to one hemisphere often has more of an effect on cognition than a similar injury in women.
Canadian researchers found prenatal testosterone levels were positively correlated with skills on a mental rotation test (imagining objects being rotated).
Males with IHH (idiopathic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism) have small testes (and therefore low levels of testosterone) and are worse at spatial reasoning.
Male babies with androgen insensitivity (AI) syndrome are also worse at spatial reasoning.
Females with CAH (congenital adrenal hyperplasia) have high levels of androgens and enhanced spatial systemizing.
Researcher Elizabeth Hampson of the University of Western Ontario found that women’s performance on certain mental tasks varied throughout their menstrual cycles. High levels of estrogen were correlated with decreased spatial ability but increased speech and manual skills.
And. perhaps most telling. there is the simple example of transsexuals. Many of us were subjected to intense efforts to “correct” our “gender.” All that socialization had no effect on our gender, and only caused us to be extremely stressed and to suffer serious emotional distress.
You’re playing a shell game here. I never claimed there aren’t differences in physiology. I stated that definitionally there is a difference between social identification (gender) and sexual identification. It wasn’t your “gender” that was trying to be corrected, but your gender or sex identity.
You make this point better than I can. Parents dressing you in typically male clothing, buying you boy toys, and calling you by a male name gender you male, regardless of your innate sexual identity.
You are either trying to play word games, or you truly have no idea what these things actually mean. When people say that gender is “socially constructed” they mean that we all start out as a blank slate, so to speak. They mean that if you were to raise a male child, from birth, to be a girl, he would be a girl. Of course, he would still physically be a boy, but mentally, he would be a girl. Or vice versa. They mean that the myriad psychological and emotional differences in men and women are all just “socialization.” It is a nice way of dismissing the idea that transsexuals are, in any serious way, really the “gender” that they feel themselves to be. Of course, science has shown this to be complete bunk. “Social construction of gender” was, and to a point, still is, very popular with radical feminists who want to believe that there are no differences in men and women. It is also popular with some extremist transgender activists who wish to believe that all one has to do to become a woman is to say the magic words, “I am a woman.” Thus we have silliness like Japser Gregory.
We don’t “gender” people. We may presume we know someone’s gender, but we can be wrong. True “gender” is rooted in biology, and while it can differ from sex, it congruent in the overwhelming majority of cases.
It’s not word games to actually take the words how they are DEFINED or are used commonly. Gender identity is what you are describing, definitionally.
I do agree with you that what rad fems say about gender and sex identification is bunk. Anyone that’s trans that’s ever been on hormones can tell you as much. But rad fems will also lay claim to oppression based on having a vagina. The fact is that if you are seen by society as a woman, you are treated like one, then you are oppressed like one… vagina or not.
How words are defined and used matters, and this shows in this post. I agree with you on gender identity. But saying that gender isn’t socially constructed is betraying the definition of the word itself and how it is defined today.
ROTFL! Well, you do have a right to be wrong.
“… It is a choice. As is “genderqueer.” No one is intrinsically gender queer. It is something people choose to do, usually as a sort of political statement.”
god what an asshole remark.
i am ftm, not genderqueer, but people are very much now, and have been throughout history, non -binary identifying at birth.
androgenous lesbians or gays spring to mind.
but if you don’t LIKE glb’s,(do you?)
you probably won’t admit their historical existance.
who are you exactly?
what gives you the right?
go hang out with the right wing christian republicans if you feel like that.
or learn some respect.
if you want it, you need to give it, lady.
So, you equate someone being a “tomboy” or perhaps a “sissy” with being “genderqueer?” I have known both.
And quite frankly, I have nothing against gays, lesbians, or bisexuals. I live in San Francisco. Many of my closest friends are gay or lesbian…well, to be honest, I don’t actually know that many bisexuals. So, yes, I acknowledge their historical existence.
Who am I exactly? I am a woman, who you clearly know nothing about, but wish to presume you do. Funny, but you seem to be doing exactly what you wish to accuse me of.
What gives me the right? I would presume the same thing that gives you the right…I am a human being, and believe it or not, I have a right to believe as I wish, just as you do. I have a right to express my opinions, just as you do. But, the one thing I have, that I seriously doubt that you do, is tolerance for those who disagree with me.
Oh, so the fact that I don’t agree with your own narrow little world view makes me a “right wing christian republican?” Ironic, don’t you think?
I respect your right to disagree.
ROTFL! To be honest, I could care less. I don’t demand that you respect me. I could honestly care less. I have my views, and you have yours. I will not be bullied by you. If you wish to disagree, that is your right.
javier,
first of all, cut the “lady” crap. If you want to come here and flame others for being right wing, you might try a little history lesson about the word “lady” and all the classist and sexist history the usage of the word has. And really, call someone an a-hole here again and I’ll ban you. I’m all for debate, but flame wars and name calling? Not so much.
I hardly think gender is innate in anyone! Gender identity, yes, but gender? Defining words and discussing them based on the meaning of the words is important.
“… It is a choice. As is “genderqueer.” No one is intrinsically gender queer. It is something people choose to do, usually as a sort of political statement.”
god what an asshole remark.
i am ftm, not genderqueer, but people are very much now, and have been throughout history, non -binary identifying at birth.
androgenous lesbians or gays spring to mind.
but if you don’t LIKE glb’s,(do you?)
you probably won’t admit their historical existance.
who are you exactly?
what gives you the right?
go hang out with the right wing christian republicans if you feel like that.
or learn some respect.
if you want it, you need to give it, lady.
So, you equate someone being a “tomboy” or perhaps a “sissy” with being “genderqueer?” I have known both.
And quite frankly, I have nothing against gays, lesbians, or bisexuals. I live in San Francisco. Many of my closest friends are gay or lesbian…well, to be honest, I don’t actually know that many bisexuals. So, yes, I acknowledge their historical existence.
Who am I exactly? I am a woman, who you clearly know nothing about, but wish to presume you do. Funny, but you seem to be doing exactly what you wish to accuse me of.
What gives me the right? I would presume the same thing that gives you the right…I am a human being, and believe it or not, I have a right to believe as I wish, just as you do. I have a right to express my opinions, just as you do. But, the one thing I have, that I seriously doubt that you do, is tolerance for those who disagree with me.
Oh, so the fact that I don’t agree with your own narrow little world view makes me a “right wing christian republican?” Ironic, don’t you think?
I respect your right to disagree.
ROTFL! To be honest, I could care less. I don’t demand that you respect me. I could honestly care less. I have my views, and you have yours. I will not be bullied by you. If you wish to disagree, that is your right.
javier,
first of all, cut the “lady” crap. If you want to come here and flame others for being right wing, you might try a little history lesson about the word “lady” and all the classist and sexist history the usage of the word has. And really, call someone an a-hole here again and I’ll ban you. I’m all for debate, but flame wars and name calling? Not so much.
I hardly think gender is innate in anyone! Gender identity, yes, but gender? Defining words and discussing them based on the meaning of the words is important.
To answer the original question…that is up to you. Woman Born Transsexual has, thanks to Cooke’s recent alignment with the transgender model, become essentially just another identity. Well, actually it always was. Just as Woman Born Woman is an identity. Ask most women if they are WBT and they would probably respond “Huh?” Then, as they think about it, they would probably say, “Yes….no wait, I was born a girl and I grew up to be woman….what an odd way of putting it…what is that supposed to mean anyway?”
Identity, and more to the point, identity politics, are the heart of this argument. “Transsexual” is not an identity. It is a medical condition. One does not choose it. “Transgender.” on the other hand, is an artificial political/social construct. It is a choice. As is “genderqueer.” No one is intrinsically gender queer. It is something people choose to do, usually as a sort of political statement.
So, as has been pointed out many times, if the TG movement will just recognize that no one should be labeled TG who does not label themselves as TG, all the fighting over labels would end.
Of course, you don’t want to do this. You need us to be, shall we say, your “beard.”
To answer the original question…that is up to you. Woman Born Transsexual has, thanks to Cooke’s recent alignment with the transgender model, become essentially just another identity. Well, actually it always was. Just as Woman Born Woman is an identity. Ask most women if they are WBT and they would probably respond “Huh?” Then, as they think about it, they would probably say, “Yes….no wait, I was born a girl and I grew up to be woman….what an odd way of putting it…what is that supposed to mean anyway?”
Identity, and more to the point, identity politics, are the heart of this argument. “Transsexual” is not an identity. It is a medical condition. One does not choose it. “Transgender.” on the other hand, is an artificial political/social construct. It is a choice. As is “genderqueer.” No one is intrinsically gender queer. It is something people choose to do, usually as a sort of political statement.
So, as has been pointed out many times, if the TG movement will just recognize that no one should be labeled TG who does not label themselves as TG, all the fighting over labels would end.
Of course, you don’t want to do this. You need us to be, shall we say, your “beard.”
“What I’ve said is that you don’t need GRS to be a “woman”, since it’s a gender/social construct.”
Well, only the transgender and some, not even all, of the GLB, the rest of the universe doesn’t buy it…a “woman” doesn’t have a penis.
“But transsexual isn’t synonymous with CT/TT/HBT/WBT.”
ROFL…you’re right, not anymore it isn’t, that’s the entire reason we use those terms.
“I’m intentionally misconstruing what you’ve said.”
Well, at least you admit it…doesn’t do anything for discussion though.
Woman is a word that implies gender, not sex. If you said “female’s don’t have penises”, I’d agree. On the other hand, unless you’re running around with a microscope and a flashlight doing pants/DNA checks, most people ID women based on appearance, not genitals.
That was my point.
I wasn’t admitting it, that was a typo 😀 I really do appreciate the dialogue in these comments. It’s the first time in a long time that I’ve felt like this discussion isn’t about personalities flaming the hell out of each other.
“What I’ve said is that you don’t need GRS to be a “woman”, since it’s a gender/social construct.”
Well, only the transgender and some, not even all, of the GLB, the rest of the universe doesn’t buy it…a “woman” doesn’t have a penis.
“But transsexual isn’t synonymous with CT/TT/HBT/WBT.”
ROFL…you’re right, not anymore it isn’t, that’s the entire reason we use those terms.
“I’m intentionally misconstruing what you’ve said.”
Well, at least you admit it…doesn’t do anything for discussion though.
Woman is a word that implies gender, not sex. If you said “female’s don’t have penises”, I’d agree. On the other hand, unless you’re running around with a microscope and a flashlight doing pants/DNA checks, most people ID women based on appearance, not genitals.
That was my point.
I wasn’t admitting it, that was a typo 😀 I really do appreciate the dialogue in these comments. It’s the first time in a long time that I’ve felt like this discussion isn’t about personalities flaming the hell out of each other.
You have every right to wear that title [classic/true TS] with pride and I support you in that!
That is the fundamental difference in perspective. Transgender are perpetually transgender…they are proude to be transgender…they are “out and proud” because stealth is for airplanes, right Marti?
The only title I wear is female/woman…I’ve been saying that for years right here on this blog.
Agreed. I am a woman and a female and i do not suscribe to the idea of being transgender simply based on what some gender identity movement has decided.
I am not however wishing for only a two sex binary as i know of many of my friends in the intersex community who aren’t really either. Mind you all, this isn’t by choice as in how the TG movement describes gender variants, there’s a world of difference.
Seems that the bottom line is one of the TG movement not wanting to acknowledge that we are not like them.
You have every right to wear that title [classic/true TS] with pride and I support you in that!
That is the fundamental difference in perspective. Transgender are perpetually transgender…they are proude to be transgender…they are “out and proud” because stealth is for airplanes, right Marti?
The only title I wear is female/woman…I’ve been saying that for years right here on this blog.
Agreed. I am a woman and a female and i do not suscribe to the idea of being transgender simply based on what some gender identity movement has decided.
I am not however wishing for only a two sex binary as i know of many of my friends in the intersex community who aren’t really either. Mind you all, this isn’t by choice as in how the TG movement describes gender variants, there’s a world of difference.
Seems that the bottom line is one of the TG movement not wanting to acknowledge that we are not like them.
“Another point that renders this argument moot is that there are MANY transsexuals who live a happy life without having done or wanting surgery/hormones.”
Auggie, I think you have transsexuals mixed up with crossdressers. You seem to think that a woman can have a penis…yeah, right, in your wildest dreams.
Aug, you are a perfect example of the lack of acknowledgement the transgender give classic transsexuality.
“…seem to imply that those of you who “want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT” should be able to dictate what ALL people who, by definition of the WORD, who wears the title. It’s like saying that because some lesbians don’t like being referred to as gay, that no one should ever refer to any lesbians that way.”
NO! Marti, I’m not implying anything, I’m SAYING: The internet wars will not cease until the transgender recognize and acknowledge that there are many, many classic/true transsexuals who want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT and specifically dispise being lumped in with the Miss Jaspers of the world. That’s a declarative statement and says one thing…The internet wars will not cease until the transgender recognize and acknowledge that there are many, many classic/true transsexuals who want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT and specifically dispise being lumped in with the Miss Jaspers of the world.
Many, many does not equal all, Marti, so why do say otherwise? Why do you intentionally miscontrue what I say? Is that more of the shout down offense that those transgender like yourself engage in.
If I recall, in the past you’ve said you don’t need GRS, Marti. And, now, all of a sudden you are a classic/true transsexual? Well, save the defense, you can call yourself anything you like; I don’t care. But there are many of us who really are classic/true transsexuals who want nothing to do with anything transgender.
We fully recognize that you, aug, and other transgender should have and obtain whatever social justice you feel you need…we recognize that. But, you, aug, and other transgender absolutely refuse to recognize nor acknowledge that classic/true transsexualism is different than transgender. You refuse to give us the respect and acknowledgement we give you.
Why, Marti?
Shout down? I’m not shouting you down, Susan and I don’t appreciate you implying that I’m intentionally misconstruing what you’ve said. I don’t care if you continue with these “internet wars”. If that’s what you choose to devote your time to, more power to you.
What I’ve said is that you don’t need GRS to be a “woman”, since it’s a gender/social construct.
And I don’t think we’ll ever agree on that point because by definition one is included in the other. I’ve never EVER said that CT/TT/HBT/WBT is the same as transgender. But transsexual isn’t synonymous with CT/TT/HBT/WBT.
“Another point that renders this argument moot is that there are MANY transsexuals who live a happy life without having done or wanting surgery/hormones.”
Auggie, I think you have transsexuals mixed up with crossdressers. You seem to think that a woman can have a penis…yeah, right, in your wildest dreams.
Aug, you are a perfect example of the lack of acknowledgement the transgender give classic transsexuality.
“…seem to imply that those of you who “want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT” should be able to dictate what ALL people who, by definition of the WORD, who wears the title. It’s like saying that because some lesbians don’t like being referred to as gay, that no one should ever refer to any lesbians that way.”
NO! Marti, I’m not implying anything, I’m SAYING: The internet wars will not cease until the transgender recognize and acknowledge that there are many, many classic/true transsexuals who want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT and specifically dispise being lumped in with the Miss Jaspers of the world. That’s a declarative statement and says one thing…The internet wars will not cease until the transgender recognize and acknowledge that there are many, many classic/true transsexuals who want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT and specifically dispise being lumped in with the Miss Jaspers of the world.
Many, many does not equal all, Marti, so why do say otherwise? Why do you intentionally miscontrue what I say? Is that more of the shout down offense that those transgender like yourself engage in.
If I recall, in the past you’ve said you don’t need GRS, Marti. And, now, all of a sudden you are a classic/true transsexual? Well, save the defense, you can call yourself anything you like; I don’t care. But there are many of us who really are classic/true transsexuals who want nothing to do with anything transgender.
We fully recognize that you, aug, and other transgender should have and obtain whatever social justice you feel you need…we recognize that. But, you, aug, and other transgender absolutely refuse to recognize nor acknowledge that classic/true transsexualism is different than transgender. You refuse to give us the respect and acknowledgement we give you.
Why, Marti?
Shout down? I’m not shouting you down, Susan and I don’t appreciate you implying that I’m intentionally misconstruing what you’ve said. I don’t care if you continue with these “internet wars”. If that’s what you choose to devote your time to, more power to you.
What I’ve said is that you don’t need GRS to be a “woman”, since it’s a gender/social construct.
And I don’t think we’ll ever agree on that point because by definition one is included in the other. I’ve never EVER said that CT/TT/HBT/WBT is the same as transgender. But transsexual isn’t synonymous with CT/TT/HBT/WBT.
>Gender IS Binary .. period Only the Transgender believe it not to be.
Binary as in having not more than two extremes, yes. Binary as in ‘you’re either male or female’, no.
>They have NOTHING in common. Transsexuals are born with a birth defect. They are women, their body has male characteristics. We move heaven and earth to correct it and move silently into our target gender roles as women. A genderqueer is a version of homosexualy. They do not require nor are driven to correct sexual characteristics, and most of them are mysogonistic and gynophobic.
A genderqueer is a version of WHAT?! That’s hilarious coming from a TS! Of course many GQs don’t want surgeries and hormones – they fall somewhere in between the genders, so there’s no need to go from one extreme to the other, from female/male to male/female, from penis/vagina to vagina/penis. Another point that renders this argument moot is that there are MANY transsexuals who live a happy life without having done or wanting surgery/hormones. Also, what the hell do the personalities of the few (if any) genderqueers you’ve met have to do with what genderqueerness is? Now, please elaborate on the big difference you’re still seeing between transsexuals and genderqueers.
>Transsexuals had social acceptance long ago.
And it’s getting better and better, admit it. It’s a very slow climb uphill from a very deep valley, yes. But up is, without a doubt, the current direction.
>you suffer the hate because you try try to “pass” your femaleness onto a public that neither belives it or wants it.
First off, it’s difficult for me to talk about that because I’m not one of those that’s trying to pass any femaleness onto anyone. Still, I can’t help but realize the insane irony in your statement. The same argument you’re using against CDs and TVs here was, and still is, being used against transsexuals. Double standard much?
>Gender IS Binary .. period Only the Transgender believe it not to be.
Binary as in having not more than two extremes, yes. Binary as in ‘you’re either male or female’, no.
>They have NOTHING in common. Transsexuals are born with a birth defect. They are women, their body has male characteristics. We move heaven and earth to correct it and move silently into our target gender roles as women. A genderqueer is a version of homosexualy. They do not require nor are driven to correct sexual characteristics, and most of them are mysogonistic and gynophobic.
A genderqueer is a version of WHAT?! That’s hilarious coming from a TS! Of course many GQs don’t want surgeries and hormones – they fall somewhere in between the genders, so there’s no need to go from one extreme to the other, from female/male to male/female, from penis/vagina to vagina/penis. Another point that renders this argument moot is that there are MANY transsexuals who live a happy life without having done or wanting surgery/hormones. Also, what the hell do the personalities of the few (if any) genderqueers you’ve met have to do with what genderqueerness is? Now, please elaborate on the big difference you’re still seeing between transsexuals and genderqueers.
>Transsexuals had social acceptance long ago.
And it’s getting better and better, admit it. It’s a very slow climb uphill from a very deep valley, yes. But up is, without a doubt, the current direction.
>you suffer the hate because you try try to “pass” your femaleness onto a public that neither belives it or wants it.
First off, it’s difficult for me to talk about that because I’m not one of those that’s trying to pass any femaleness onto anyone. Still, I can’t help but realize the insane irony in your statement. The same argument you’re using against CDs and TVs here was, and still is, being used against transsexuals. Double standard much?
“and please correct me if I’m wrong here – to have a rather binary view of gender.”
Gender IS Binary .. period Only the Transgender believe it not to be.
“Genderqueers, for example, have much in common with transsexuals
They have NOTHING in common.
“TSs are born with psychological characteristics at odds with the social expectations their biological/genetical characteristics bring up”
Transsexuals are born with a birth defect. They are women, their body has male characteristics. We move heaven and earth to correct it and move silently into our target gender roles as women. A genderqueer is a version of homosexualy. They do not require nor are driven to correct sexual characteristics, and most of them are mysogonistic and gynophobic.
“So, please refrain from making sweeping statements about everyone included in the transgender category”
Sure, when the GLBT refrain from including transsexuals under their umbrella.
“Sadly, I get the impression that many people here are willing to risk losing this unity just to prevent CDs or TVs from ’stealing’ any of the social acceptance transsexuals are slowly gaining.”
Transsexuals had social acceptance long ago. The public do not suffer fools willingly and were well aware of the transsexual condition half a century ago. The CD’s and Tv”s are the ones that have tried to steal that acceptance by stealing our identity and claiming transsexualism.
“Can’t everyone just forget their ego for a minute and start doing something about all the hate directed not just at us, but also the hate COMING from us?”
It’s not an ego issue, it’s an identity issue. We are NOT you, you are NOT us.
We do not suffer the hate you suffer, you suffer the hate because you try try to “pass” your femaleness onto a public that neither belives it or wants it.
“
“and please correct me if I’m wrong here – to have a rather binary view of gender.”
Gender IS Binary .. period Only the Transgender believe it not to be.
“Genderqueers, for example, have much in common with transsexuals
They have NOTHING in common.
“TSs are born with psychological characteristics at odds with the social expectations their biological/genetical characteristics bring up”
Transsexuals are born with a birth defect. They are women, their body has male characteristics. We move heaven and earth to correct it and move silently into our target gender roles as women. A genderqueer is a version of homosexualy. They do not require nor are driven to correct sexual characteristics, and most of them are mysogonistic and gynophobic.
“So, please refrain from making sweeping statements about everyone included in the transgender category”
Sure, when the GLBT refrain from including transsexuals under their umbrella.
“Sadly, I get the impression that many people here are willing to risk losing this unity just to prevent CDs or TVs from ’stealing’ any of the social acceptance transsexuals are slowly gaining.”
Transsexuals had social acceptance long ago. The public do not suffer fools willingly and were well aware of the transsexual condition half a century ago. The CD’s and Tv”s are the ones that have tried to steal that acceptance by stealing our identity and claiming transsexualism.
“Can’t everyone just forget their ego for a minute and start doing something about all the hate directed not just at us, but also the hate COMING from us?”
It’s not an ego issue, it’s an identity issue. We are NOT you, you are NOT us.
We do not suffer the hate you suffer, you suffer the hate because you try try to “pass” your femaleness onto a public that neither belives it or wants it.
“
@Leigh and everyone else
>There are also transgenders (crossdressers, transvestites, genderqueers etc:) that will tell you they are transsexuals, but in reality are not.
I agree with you that CDs, TVs and GQs calling themselves transsexual is simply wrong by definition.
But the tone of your (and some others) posts here seems to imply that not only is the real reason for your resentment against the transgender term a fear of any kind of association with other people not quite like you but still also transgressing the classical gender system, you also seem – and please correct me if I’m wrong here – to have a rather binary view of gender.
Genderqueers, for example, have much in common with transsexuals. TSs are born with psychological characteristics at odds with the social expectations their biological/genetical characteristics bring up. Same goes for GQs, though in a lesser way: While a transsexual might be biologically female and psychologically male, a genderqueer might be biologically female and psychologically mainly, but not quite extremely, male. No big difference here if you ask me.
So, please refrain from making sweeping statements about everyone included in the transgender category and remember that the term was largely a political invention to unite people who have in common the goal of destroying heteronormativity. Sadly, I get the impression that many people here are willing to risk losing this unity just to prevent CDs or TVs from ‘stealing’ any of the social acceptance transsexuals are slowly gaining. Can’t everyone just forget their ego for a minute and start doing something about all the hate directed not just at us, but also the hate COMING from us?
Leigh, I’m scared. We’re starting to agree a lot! 🙂
Aug, in terms of how one is viewed, regardless of how “gender queer” or ambiguous they look, they are still gendered. Again it’s a categorical mistake you’re making. “Gender”, even in the sense of “gender queer” is still a social construct, transsexualism is not.
And aug, please provide the history to back up your statement that transgender was created to “destroy heteronomativity.” You don’t get a free ride on that one. If you’re going to state that, please source it.
I’m not really concerned as to what it was created FOR, but what is used for now. It is simply a way to categorize or umbrella gender or sex based variance. I don’t think it’s hateful to say that I have very little in common with a crossdresser. I’m sure many CD’s would say the same thing about me. What is important is that in the eyes of someone who clocks either of us as not biologically born in the gender that we present, is that we would both be in danger for the same reason. The TDOR list is full of CD’s AND TS’s. Hate doesn’t discriminate. And in the realm of politics, coalitions are key.
@Leigh and everyone else
>There are also transgenders (crossdressers, transvestites, genderqueers etc:) that will tell you they are transsexuals, but in reality are not.
I agree with you that CDs, TVs and GQs calling themselves transsexual is simply wrong by definition.
But the tone of your (and some others) posts here seems to imply that not only is the real reason for your resentment against the transgender term a fear of any kind of association with other people not quite like you but still also transgressing the classical gender system, you also seem – and please correct me if I’m wrong here – to have a rather binary view of gender.
Genderqueers, for example, have much in common with transsexuals. TSs are born with psychological characteristics at odds with the social expectations their biological/genetical characteristics bring up. Same goes for GQs, though in a lesser way: While a transsexual might be biologically female and psychologically male, a genderqueer might be biologically female and psychologically mainly, but not quite extremely, male. No big difference here if you ask me.
So, please refrain from making sweeping statements about everyone included in the transgender category and remember that the term was largely a political invention to unite people who have in common the goal of destroying heteronormativity. Sadly, I get the impression that many people here are willing to risk losing this unity just to prevent CDs or TVs from ‘stealing’ any of the social acceptance transsexuals are slowly gaining. Can’t everyone just forget their ego for a minute and start doing something about all the hate directed not just at us, but also the hate COMING from us?
Leigh, I’m scared. We’re starting to agree a lot! 🙂
Aug, in terms of how one is viewed, regardless of how “gender queer” or ambiguous they look, they are still gendered. Again it’s a categorical mistake you’re making. “Gender”, even in the sense of “gender queer” is still a social construct, transsexualism is not.
And aug, please provide the history to back up your statement that transgender was created to “destroy heteronomativity.” You don’t get a free ride on that one. If you’re going to state that, please source it.
I’m not really concerned as to what it was created FOR, but what is used for now. It is simply a way to categorize or umbrella gender or sex based variance. I don’t think it’s hateful to say that I have very little in common with a crossdresser. I’m sure many CD’s would say the same thing about me. What is important is that in the eyes of someone who clocks either of us as not biologically born in the gender that we present, is that we would both be in danger for the same reason. The TDOR list is full of CD’s AND TS’s. Hate doesn’t discriminate. And in the realm of politics, coalitions are key.
Hi, Marti! 🙂
I don’t get the “white guy with a cunt” quote. Is Jasper referring to them self and if so, is Jasper morphologically an FTM?
He’s actually referring to a quote by Riki Wilchins.
Hi, Marti! 🙂
I don’t get the “white guy with a cunt” quote. Is Jasper referring to them self and if so, is Jasper morphologically an FTM?
He’s actually referring to a quote by Riki Wilchins.
Marti said:
“you seem to imply that those of you who “want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT” should be able to dictate what ALL people who, by definition of the WORD, who wears the title. It’s like saying that because some lesbians don’t like being referred to as gay, that no one should ever refer to any lesbians that way.”
I can agree to this.
Marti said:
“you seem to imply that those of you who “want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT” should be able to dictate what ALL people who, by definition of the WORD, who wears the title. It’s like saying that because some lesbians don’t like being referred to as gay, that no one should ever refer to any lesbians that way.”
I can agree to this.
Katie
Wait a dog gone minute !
I never said that transsexuals who identify as transgender are not transsexual. Look at my post. Since you bring it up though ..
There are most definatly transsexuals that define as transgender, but that is mostly because the term transsexual was co-opted INTO transgender, and many of the transsexuals that also define as transgender, do so because they have been taught this nonsense that marti wrote :
“Transgender is an umbrella term, of which transsexuals fall under.”
I ask you .. did YOU get to vote on this? I know I didn’t and I have bee corrected for going on 20 years now.
Now …
There are also transgenders (crossdressers, transvestites, genderqueers etc:) that will tell you they are transsexuals, but in reality are not. They have simply co-opted the term because there is no rule that says they cannot.
Transsexuals have remained silent on this issue for well over a decade now. Mostly, we transition and we move on. But now, we find ourselves more and more being caught up in this re-evaluation of what a transsexual is. The term has changed from one of a medical issue to one of a social issue. We strongly disagree and we now have women that are willing to stand up and say ENOUGH! We are speaking back to the transgender appropriation of our condition.
If you’re discussing an important issue like this, it’s important that definitions be clear. I didn’t put them in the post to condescend, but to define my argument.
A CD or TV who identifies as transsexual is making a categorical mistake, by definition.
And while Harry Benjamin thought of it as a medical issue, it was classified as a psychological one. That being said, I think the re-evaluation of what GID is and how transsexuals should be classified is a good thing.
Katie
Wait a dog gone minute !
I never said that transsexuals who identify as transgender are not transsexual. Look at my post. Since you bring it up though ..
There are most definatly transsexuals that define as transgender, but that is mostly because the term transsexual was co-opted INTO transgender, and many of the transsexuals that also define as transgender, do so because they have been taught this nonsense that marti wrote :
“Transgender is an umbrella term, of which transsexuals fall under.”
I ask you .. did YOU get to vote on this? I know I didn’t and I have bee corrected for going on 20 years now.
Now …
There are also transgenders (crossdressers, transvestites, genderqueers etc:) that will tell you they are transsexuals, but in reality are not. They have simply co-opted the term because there is no rule that says they cannot.
Transsexuals have remained silent on this issue for well over a decade now. Mostly, we transition and we move on. But now, we find ourselves more and more being caught up in this re-evaluation of what a transsexual is. The term has changed from one of a medical issue to one of a social issue. We strongly disagree and we now have women that are willing to stand up and say ENOUGH! We are speaking back to the transgender appropriation of our condition.
If you’re discussing an important issue like this, it’s important that definitions be clear. I didn’t put them in the post to condescend, but to define my argument.
A CD or TV who identifies as transsexual is making a categorical mistake, by definition.
And while Harry Benjamin thought of it as a medical issue, it was classified as a psychological one. That being said, I think the re-evaluation of what GID is and how transsexuals should be classified is a good thing.
In the same way that gender and gender identity aren’t synonymous, neither are transsexual and transgender. Transgender is an umbrella term, of which transsexuals fall under.”
This is so wrong for me as a woman. Yes, i was born transsexual in the sense that it’s biological and not some gender game that the Jaspers of the world think is up for grabs just like that. Transsexual is not something belonging to the transgender melting pot, our lives as transsexuals were co-opted, stolen, taken over and re-defined by the gender politicos of the TG and GL movements.
The lies need to stop, transsexual is different from transgender AND does not fall under your TG umbrella ( not meaning you Marti personally but the movement ).
I see a groundswell of transsexuals who are angry at the TG and Gl movements and they are saying; we will not take your oppression any more !
In the same way that gender and gender identity aren’t synonymous, neither are transsexual and transgender. Transgender is an umbrella term, of which transsexuals fall under.”
This is so wrong for me as a woman. Yes, i was born transsexual in the sense that it’s biological and not some gender game that the Jaspers of the world think is up for grabs just like that. Transsexual is not something belonging to the transgender melting pot, our lives as transsexuals were co-opted, stolen, taken over and re-defined by the gender politicos of the TG and GL movements.
The lies need to stop, transsexual is different from transgender AND does not fall under your TG umbrella ( not meaning you Marti personally but the movement ).
I see a groundswell of transsexuals who are angry at the TG and Gl movements and they are saying; we will not take your oppression any more !
A transsexual women is born female, cause the absence or presence of a penis isn’t sex determining. Maybe she had lived in a “male gender” and changed this into a “female gender” (transgender) she ever had been female – that’s the reason why she changed.
A transsexual women is born female, cause the absence or presence of a penis isn’t sex determining. Maybe she had lived in a “male gender” and changed this into a “female gender” (transgender) she ever had been female – that’s the reason why she changed.
“When someone that is appropriating my identity or speaking in my name, I’m offended.”
And, when the transgender speak for me, overtly or by implication, I’m offended as well. As Leigh says, more and more of us are speaking up, more blogs are surfacing and our voices are rising. The internet wars will not cease until the transgender recognize and acknowledge that there are many, many classic/true transsexuals who want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT and specifically dispise being lumped in with the Miss Jaspers of the world.
Susan, the difference being, is the common meaning and usage of the words. We can argue over dictionary terms and common usage, but I think that’s a totally different post entirely. I’ll most likely never wear the title of “classic/true transsexual/HBS/WBT” even though I would be classified that as a “classic’ or “true transsexual”. You have every right to wear that title with pride and I support you in that! Where we part roads is that you seem to imply that those of you who “want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT” should be able to dictate what ALL people who, by definition of the WORD, who wears the title. It’s like saying that because some lesbians don’t like being referred to as gay, that no one should ever refer to any lesbians that way.
“When someone that is appropriating my identity or speaking in my name, I’m offended.”
And, when the transgender speak for me, overtly or by implication, I’m offended as well. As Leigh says, more and more of us are speaking up, more blogs are surfacing and our voices are rising. The internet wars will not cease until the transgender recognize and acknowledge that there are many, many classic/true transsexuals who want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT and specifically dispise being lumped in with the Miss Jaspers of the world.
Susan, the difference being, is the common meaning and usage of the words. We can argue over dictionary terms and common usage, but I think that’s a totally different post entirely. I’ll most likely never wear the title of “classic/true transsexual/HBS/WBT” even though I would be classified that as a “classic’ or “true transsexual”. You have every right to wear that title with pride and I support you in that! Where we part roads is that you seem to imply that those of you who “want nothing – NOTHING – to do with the GLBT” should be able to dictate what ALL people who, by definition of the WORD, who wears the title. It’s like saying that because some lesbians don’t like being referred to as gay, that no one should ever refer to any lesbians that way.
Jasper is definitely not a woman. I also, as a transsexual lesbian, deeply resent him appropriating the word “lesbian” for his own use. A lesbian is a person who is a woman, living in the world as a woman, who is attracted sexually and romantically to other women. Jasper frequently cites Julia Serano for support but I doubt that Julia ever meant to say or imply that anybody who wants to use the word woman to describe themselves is necessarily a woman. She does pretty explicitly limit her discussion of “women” to, well, WOMEN – cissexual women obviously, but also specifically transsexual women who live in the world at least part-time as women, who intend to do so, or who have transitioned. Jasper is a feminine, heterosexual, male crossdresser. In a sense, I understand him wanting to appropriate the words “woman” and “lesbian” – feminine heterosexual males tend to have a rough go of it in the world. They have far less social understanding than even the meager ration that transsexual women get by with, and from some estimates, their suicide rates are even higher than ours.
I believe in him not identifying with the word “man.” That does not entitle him to appropriate the word “woman.”
And Leigh, don’t be too quick on the trigger. A lot of transsexual people DO identify, also, as transgender and to say that they are not “real” transsexuals is to do them a huge disservice. It is no more our job to patrol the borders of “transsexual”, than it is the job of the Germaine Greers of the world to patrol the borders of “woman.”
Exactly, I agree 100%
I’m not sure I’ve seen you comment here before, so welcome!
Thank you!
Actually I’m not so sure that Jasper can actually be said to be “citing” Julia, given that he just seems to be cherry picking what she says for whatever support is available…
Jasper is definitely not a woman. I also, as a transsexual lesbian, deeply resent him appropriating the word “lesbian” for his own use. A lesbian is a person who is a woman, living in the world as a woman, who is attracted sexually and romantically to other women. Jasper frequently cites Julia Serano for support but I doubt that Julia ever meant to say or imply that anybody who wants to use the word woman to describe themselves is necessarily a woman. She does pretty explicitly limit her discussion of “women” to, well, WOMEN – cissexual women obviously, but also specifically transsexual women who live in the world at least part-time as women, who intend to do so, or who have transitioned. Jasper is a feminine, heterosexual, male crossdresser. In a sense, I understand him wanting to appropriate the words “woman” and “lesbian” – feminine heterosexual males tend to have a rough go of it in the world. They have far less social understanding than even the meager ration that transsexual women get by with, and from some estimates, their suicide rates are even higher than ours.
I believe in him not identifying with the word “man.” That does not entitle him to appropriate the word “woman.”
And Leigh, don’t be too quick on the trigger. A lot of transsexual people DO identify, also, as transgender and to say that they are not “real” transsexuals is to do them a huge disservice. It is no more our job to patrol the borders of “transsexual”, than it is the job of the Germaine Greers of the world to patrol the borders of “woman.”
Exactly, I agree 100%
I’m not sure I’ve seen you comment here before, so welcome!
Thank you!
Actually I’m not so sure that Jasper can actually be said to be “citing” Julia, given that he just seems to be cherry picking what she says for whatever support is available…
“In the same way that gender and gender identity aren’t synonymous, neither are transsexual and transgender. Transgender is an umbrella term, of which transsexuals fall under.”
No! .. that is the assumption of the transgender. How many times must it be said, transsexuals were co-opted into that term, mainly due to the fact that the vast majority of us are invisible to society as a whole. Fortunatly, that is changing as more and more of us are speaking out, and more intenet blogs are showing up denouncing the transgender assimilation of transsexuals.
The transgender GLB days of speaking for us are numbered. We will not go quietly into the night. If the transgender want our respect they must stop assimilating us and stealing our identity in the way that Jasper is trying to speak for and steal yours.
Leigh, see my response to Susan. It applies to your comment as well.
And that’s just it. Your “identity” hasn’t been stolen. You can have HBS/CT/TT/WBT all to yourself. I will agree with you that the days of the GLB speaking for transsexuals is coming to a close, but I think it will be more for political strategy reasons, than categorical ones.
“In the same way that gender and gender identity aren’t synonymous, neither are transsexual and transgender. Transgender is an umbrella term, of which transsexuals fall under.”
No! .. that is the assumption of the transgender. How many times must it be said, transsexuals were co-opted into that term, mainly due to the fact that the vast majority of us are invisible to society as a whole. Fortunatly, that is changing as more and more of us are speaking out, and more intenet blogs are showing up denouncing the transgender assimilation of transsexuals.
The transgender GLB days of speaking for us are numbered. We will not go quietly into the night. If the transgender want our respect they must stop assimilating us and stealing our identity in the way that Jasper is trying to speak for and steal yours.
Leigh, see my response to Susan. It applies to your comment as well.
And that’s just it. Your “identity” hasn’t been stolen. You can have HBS/CT/TT/WBT all to yourself. I will agree with you that the days of the GLB speaking for transsexuals is coming to a close, but I think it will be more for political strategy reasons, than categorical ones.
It’s easy for people to talk all kinds of water-cooler politics and come up with titles like, “just your average straight white guy with a c*nt“ – which btw, is totally offensive to me to the point that I would never go to that blog and I feel slightly like throwing up.
Anyway – the real life day to day existence of being who you are does cost, as you said – “a hefty price.” People who walk the line know the truths that are to be known. People who take their subconscious gender seriously, and seek to live out their own truth in a respectful way are doing work that is on the cutting edge of our evolution and survival as a society and a species. They are making a sacrifice in order to feel that they could live free today, and they are giving other the guts to try and do the same. That’s what is important about gender identities and politics and living your life true. It is not an attention grabbing popularity contest with lots of scarves. The people who are conducting editorial ego wars and little ego trips for attention like this – they are a detriment to the entire process.
To me, that article is like a troller post, and the earmarks on that blog in general are: someone wants some attention. The very first thing said is exclusionary and demeaning to all other people’s claims of gender: “I do not recognize any claims to the truth of a gender.” I could pick apart even the quotes you pasted into this post – but it would be just what he is looking for. I am not a perch. I do not jump at bait – especially when the lure is so rusty and bent.
Marti: I appreciate the fact that you make an honest effort on your site to address real issues in a constructive way. I’m not saying you”re perfect and I am certainly not perfect either, but I believe that as long as there is an honest effort to get at the truth, and be free with your own ideas in a respectful way, it is a positive addition to the whole trans dialogue.
I’d like to see more transfolk get involved in understanding the differences of how we all really feel, how we are affected by what is being said, and finding ways to meet and understand one another. People need to be more honest with their feelings and start asking for mutual respect. We need to start somewhere.
It’s easy for people to talk all kinds of water-cooler politics and come up with titles like, “just your average straight white guy with a c*nt“ – which btw, is totally offensive to me to the point that I would never go to that blog and I feel slightly like throwing up.
Anyway – the real life day to day existence of being who you are does cost, as you said – “a hefty price.” People who walk the line know the truths that are to be known. People who take their subconscious gender seriously, and seek to live out their own truth in a respectful way are doing work that is on the cutting edge of our evolution and survival as a society and a species. They are making a sacrifice in order to feel that they could live free today, and they are giving other the guts to try and do the same. That’s what is important about gender identities and politics and living your life true. It is not an attention grabbing popularity contest with lots of scarves. The people who are conducting editorial ego wars and little ego trips for attention like this – they are a detriment to the entire process.
To me, that article is like a troller post, and the earmarks on that blog in general are: someone wants some attention. The very first thing said is exclusionary and demeaning to all other people’s claims of gender: “I do not recognize any claims to the truth of a gender.” I could pick apart even the quotes you pasted into this post – but it would be just what he is looking for. I am not a perch. I do not jump at bait – especially when the lure is so rusty and bent.
Marti: I appreciate the fact that you make an honest effort on your site to address real issues in a constructive way. I’m not saying you”re perfect and I am certainly not perfect either, but I believe that as long as there is an honest effort to get at the truth, and be free with your own ideas in a respectful way, it is a positive addition to the whole trans dialogue.
I’d like to see more transfolk get involved in understanding the differences of how we all really feel, how we are affected by what is being said, and finding ways to meet and understand one another. People need to be more honest with their feelings and start asking for mutual respect. We need to start somewhere.