The Irish Times Pub employees violently deny a trans woman entrance on St Patricks weekend

By Kelli Anne Busey
@kellibusey

 

Andi Dier. a transgender woman from New York was roughed up by the employees of The Irish Times Pub and Restaurant in Holbrooke as they bruskly removed her from the premise. Ms Dier says they used transphobic slurs and tried to take her I phone after seeing she had recorded part of the incident.

They then stole her state issued ID and had it not been for a stranger outraged over her treatment, she says the employees would have kept it.

Most New York transgender citizens are not protected against discrimination as the legislature has repeatedly failed to enact  Genda

From Andi Dier’s  Tumblr Post:

“The incident started from a lack of competence on the 14th of March; I was being harassed about how my state issued driver’s permit didn’t look like me. But it did, because it was, however I had makeup on. I patiently explained that I was transgender. In response, the staff condescendingly told me, “… that’s your fault.” Demanding that I come back with a new I.D. But this card was not expired. I haven’t had any surgery. And they wouldn’t have told a cisgender girl that her I.D. was invalid simply because she decided to sport makeup that night which she hadn’t previously photographed. This is a clear issue of discrimination.”

“When I tried asking for the manager the staff not only ignored my request; they violently slammed me against the wall when I was not attempting to advance any further into the building. One of them, bearing three times more weight, kept charging at me with untempered fury; breaking the door behind him. This was after I requested their names and upon noticing my phone in hand they attempted to steal and smash it.”

“They behaved unprofessionally, acting out of ignorance and rage. When my friends, who’d already been let in, tried calmly explaining the situation to the staff they replied by intentionally misgendering me as a “he.” After being corrected they used transphobic slurs like “he-she” and “it.” When I attempted to show my legitimate I.D. they swiftly stole it from my hand, refusing to give it back.”

“They stole a government issued permit. They chuckled as my night was ruined, along with my mascara. They publicly embarrassed me. They made me feel unsafe.

We (as trans people) are denied access to proper healthcare. We’ve been denied access to the bathroom. And now we can’t even get into the pub.” – Post by Andi Dier.

I contacted Andi on facebook she provided a further explanation of what happened:

I was assaulted in the vestibule of the pub. I did not make any advancement to further into the building. The security wouldn’t let me ask for a manger without violently pushing me out. They said their names were Rob and Matt, as stated in this audio clip:

“They took my driver’s permit after I took it out to show them that this was me. I did not get it back until the end of the night when someone else, who I did not know, had to aggressively fight for it. Without them I’d still be without it.”

I asked Andi if she considered the Pub’s employees action a physical assault and if she had contacted the police yet

If pushing me, with unnecessary force when I’m at least half the weight of them, so untempered and disregard for physical consequences that they smashed me into the wall and broke the closing mechanism on the door is physical assault then yes. They kept pushing me out when I was asking for a manager, getting more and more aggressive. I was honestly starting to fear for my well-being but my ride was inside. They did not lighten up on the physical contact until I shouted, “This is physical assault. You’re physically assaulting me.” As if acknowledging their own wrong doing, their touch lightened up.”

“And no. I’ve not yet contacted the police. I’ve been afraid they wouldn’t do much, if anything, and was scared the situation would escalated further. Police do not have a good history of understand trans* folk.”


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Kelli Busey

Kelli Busey

Contributer at TransAdvocate
Army veteran Kelli Busey and the author behind PlaneTransgender. She was the first author to accept a year commitment to the Reconciling Ministries Blog (RMN) where she wrote about civil disobedience actions she engaged in with Soulforce, a faith-based LGBT organization.

In 2008, Kelli founded the Dallas Transgender Advocates and Allies and has written for a number of magazines and is currently a contributor at the Daily Kos.
Kelli Busey
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101 comments on “The Irish Times Pub employees violently deny a trans woman entrance on St Patricks weekend
  1. All was “good” insofar as their rage is concerned, until Andi said she was transgender. So what? Is wearing makeup illegal for males? Well, apparently so at this pub because it was at this point that the fury of hell was apparently unleashed.

    Funny, how being honest about who we are ends up being an “admission of guilt” or in their words “that’s your fault”. Fault? For wearing makeup like all the other girls? For me, it was a supervisor (few days after hire) asking me about my wearing makeup. At the time I had cut my hair (see profile pic), however my ID showed my sex as F. Like a complete buffoon who was too trusting, I also confessed that “I was transgender”, not realizing the vitriolic animus others have toward us, which I do now. Long story short, only days later I was “unwelcomed” from employment. Funny thing is if I hadn’t said anything about my gender history, he also couldn’t say anything if I insisted I was female as shown on my ID. Worst thing? All I got from “trans groups” was “Oh sweetie, we are so sorry that happened.” Well, since then, I vowed to be transphobia’s worst enemy which is why I write the way I do, and have zero trust in any trans group being there when we need their help the most.

    Now that I know that others truly wish us dead or in “fellowship camps”, such as is happening in Russia and Uganda, after I get stabilized with employment again (pending), I am going to do much, much more than merely type away. I intend to be a much more passively active (oxymoron for effect) because no citizen should be so wrongly convicted by the Gender Police. This is about civil rights and past civil rights struggles have required personal sacrifices that run the gamut, including apprehensions, fasting and sacrifice of life (Dr M.L. King). For me, it truly is no less serious, because personal costs now run in tens of thousands of $ in loss of employment……..all because I was honest and like Andi, said “I am transgender.”

  2. Also, more likely than not, the pub has video and so it is highly likely that the incident is “on tape”. Insist that the police review the video recordings. If they’ve been deleted, this would be tampering/destruction of evidence, interfering with an investigation.

  3. I think that “Bscott”, who claims to “do security” at this pub, needs to
    rethink his description of this pub as “classy”. He is obviously
    ignorant and hateful. I wonder what the owners of the pub think? Andi,
    have you, or anyone, spoken to them about this? Do they have an
    official stance? This is just another example of privilege and bullying
    by people who are so happy with their privilege that they will do
    anything to keep it, and the easiest thing to do is remain ignorant
    regarding anyone who is different from themselves. This is a very
    arrogant attitude and obviously not a very enlightened one. I wish I
    had been with you. Because while on the one hand, I would not want to
    go into a place that ignorant – I’d find a new hangout that has joined
    the 21st century and leave the neanderthals to themselves – I wish I’d
    been there for them to try to push this woman against a wall, or you or
    your friends. They would not have walked away under their own power
    (and it would have been completely self-defense or in the defense of
    others – I would never “pick a fight”). I.e., I would have had your
    back. This kind of behavior and institutionalized injustice really
    upsets me. I hope you can successfully sue their butts off, Andi!
    It’s funny how people in power and with privilege scoff at lawsuits,
    pointing further accusatory fingers at those who are genuinely
    discriminated against and hurt in the process, because they would prefer
    us to remain silent “victims”. Well, those days are gone. “Speak up
    even if your voice shakes!!!” More people than you know may stand
    behind you.

    • It would be a challenge to find truer words that have been spoken. Yes, those days are “long gone” and behind us. Just like stupid criminals who boast of their exploits online, these violators of human civil rights do not know the overwhelming force behind us; MDs, civil law, US Dept of Ed., EEOC, ACLU, some trans groups, and above all the US Federal government.

      In fact, the reason for panicked desperation by “I-forgot-what-my-bible-says Religious groups” and rogue states such as Arizona and SB 1062, is the recognition that “those days are gone”. Like the alligator that fought valiantly for 5 hours before becoming dinner for a python, enemies of human civil rights , in this case transgender rights, are not yet aware that they are on the wrong side of history, just as occurred in past historic civil rights struggles. Nothing stands as clear evidence of this “panicked desperation” as what occurred to Jane Doe in Colorado when someone spoke “AbraCadabra” and just like that restroom ingress became “harassment.” Also, the over 25+ lies presented as fact against CA AB 1266 are now a matter of public record.

      • Exactly, Christian_transgender! I call it their “death throes”. I am going to Arizona for one year – I leave in July – and plan to use my voice there. What a sad state of affairs. And I was embarrassed to live in N.C…… I don’t know which is worse. Certainly there are great people in both states, too, but more of us need to speak up, and physically stand up.

      • I believe you are former sworn also, and your comments reflect job knowledge which helps put balance in conversations such as this (unless I misread ‘nother comment)? They are death throes, by persons who often wish us dead. My goodness, you’re walking into the AZ snakepit! You’ll need your kevlar for sure! I sure wish I could join you and can’t wait to be in a position to do so which should be in about 1 year.

        Like Cristan says, marry yourself to an audio recorder. Just completed 1 yr VA training and once I get stabilized with employment, I will be good to go. You’re right about the squeaky wheel gettin’ the oil (speaking up).

      • Yes, former sworn, regular. I will only be in Arizona for a year, then I’m coming back home (N.C.). Especially plan to work with migrant farm workers and immigration reform (anti-ICE) as well as any of the LGBTQ efforts I can. I’m supposed to be going on a sabbatical and helping my mom, which I will do certainly, but can’t go to AZ and not do something constructive there. A sad situation. I’m accustomed to carrying (more than one thing) and best weapon of self defense these days, in addition to a working brain, lol, an ability to communicate and my hands, is a tiny video camera with audio. Can’t beat it. I was surely videoed enough in the past. But then, I was a good cop, not an AH. They are out there. :O) Best wishes, Christian_transgender!

  4. You should absolutely sue – that is horrible, Andi! I find it so hard to beleive our world is still so full of hate. What they did was assault and harrassment , and they deserve to be punished or they will just do the same thing to
    someone else.

  5. Beyond deeply held belief, history, as told by the ancients of old (redundancy 4 effect), shows us that abuse intended to exclude others from [name your pub, place or event] using [name your personal trait] as a rationalization, has been but an excuse for the egregious wielding of power.

    Loathing that states “I choose who I want to be in my proximity” is but one example. Our tenacity in pushing back against those who feel it is their world to control by shaming others, must never waver. This story serves to remind us of the historical power paradigm that has existed since time immemorial. The players change but the delusion of grandeur exercised through power will always require that someone be the David that confronts Goliath. Whether Dr King, Cesar Chavez, or [name your activist], history shows that stolen power will never be relinquished voluntarily. It must be wrestled from the hands of those who wish to keep it all for themselves, bullies in the playground of life.

    Our struggle is nothing new, as unbridled power continues to use any excuse to exclude entire groups from active participation in [name your pub, place, or event]—a public exercise in abuse. We see the lame excuses presented here from those who believe we should find another pub to drink in. Perhaps it is the NIMP (Not in My Pub) syndrome.

    Fortunately, unlike Russian or Uganda, our government has and does agree with us that it begs to differ. Whether LA Fitness, Cross “unFit”, the “Irish Times pub”, or the Woolworth counter in 1960, those who take possession of unmerited power to rule over others must be forced, via civil enforcement to change their ways. Even if in our lifetime, trans equality remains elusive, it will be in the lifetimes of those who come behind us that trans equality will finally and truly manifest itself, unlike Arizona’s own “manifesting” which exemplifies unbridled power. Whether “manifesting prostitution” or SB 1062, a vile example of a state-sponsored constitutional coup against the 14th Amendment, Goliath will bring his head down from the heavens only when citizens bring it down for him. Just as our Constitution so eloquently stated, true power lies in the governed, not in those who govern, despite current affairs which demonstrate otherwise.

    • I think you’re confusing a privately owned public establishment with a private membership club. New York has a law that guarantees freedom from discrimination based on gender identity in public accommodations. See New York New York City Administrative Code(new) – § 8-101 to 8-103.

      • Right – the principle applies – but it’s not in New York City. It’s in Suffolk County – their laws apply.

      • The relevant Suffolk County statutory language:

        § 89-11. Unlawful discriminatory practices in places of public accommodation, resort or amusement. back to top

        A.It shall be an unlawful discriminatory practice for any person, being
        the owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent or
        employee of any place of public accommodation, resort or amusement,
        because of the actual or perceived group identity of any person,
        directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from or deny to such person
        any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges thereof,
        or, directly or indirectly to publish, circulate, issue, display, post
        or mail any written or printed communication, notice or advertisement,
        to the effect that any of the accommodations, advantages, facilities and
        privileges of any such place shall be refused, withheld from or denied
        to any person on account of actual or perceived group identity, or that
        the patronage or custom thereat of any person of or purporting to be of
        any particular group identity is unwelcome, objectionable, or not
        acceptable, desired or solicited.

      • Unlike some ordinances, it has some teeth:

        (a)Except as otherwise provided in Subsection C(12)(b), in addition to
        any of the remedies and penalties set forth in Subsection C(11) above,
        in any matter where the Executive Director finds that a person has
        engaged in an unlawful discriminatory practice, the Commission may
        impose compensatory damages to the person aggrieved by such practice;
        punitive damages in an amount not to exceed $10,000 to the person
        aggrieved by such practice; payment to the County general fund of
        profits obtained by a respondent through the commission of unlawful
        discriminatory acts described in this § 89-12; and civil fines and
        penalties in an amount not to exceed $50,000
        -snip-

        (16)Civil penalties for violating orders of the Commission and the
        Executive Director. Any person, who shall willfully resist, prevent,
        impede or interfere with the Commission or any of its employees or
        representatives in the performance of duty under this article, or shall
        willfully violate an order of the Commission or Director or a
        conciliation agreement, shall be liable for a civil penalty of not more
        than $50,000 and an additional civil penalty of not more than $1,000 per
        day for each day that the violation continues.

      • Im not agreeing or disagreeing with what happened, but at the end of the day, entrance is based on the door mans discretion. If the person in question is denied entry based on a lack of resemblance to their ID photo, thats the argument the establishment and the security guard in question will take. Take that out of the equation and its guys like that who give bouncers a bad name. They sit home and jerk off to “Road House” then go into work and look for a reason to flex. I bounced for 6 years from Manhattan to the Hamptons and laid hands on someone less times than I can remember without provocation. Im sorry you had to deal with that Andi.

      • Excellent resource, and a pleasure to see Cristan, yourself and others, which thrills me to no end, keep hitting home runs on behalf of human equality, which so happens for us centers around our (immutable) gender personality as I call it.

        This won’t be the 1st or last place to have to dish out $ for discrimination. If I recall there was a similar establishment not long ago that did this exact thing and was coerced/forced/enforced (yes rights are forced/enforced) to share its profit$, not sure if it was in Washington State or Oregon.

      • You know that you only have to post the question once…lol…and I’m glad you can put 2 and 2 together. You know if she were to walk into a 5 star restaurant in the city , she would get turned down. Why is Irish times any different? Good luck with that law suit. ..lol

      • 5 star restaurant staff don’t assault people. Also, I’ve never had a problem getting into a 5 star restaurant and I’m a trans woman.

      • Pretty sure HE’S taking assault a little too far and if your appearance doesn’t match your id, your not getting in. What’s so hard about that?

      • Unfortunatly, I haven’t seen the ID photo, so I cannot comment on whether she looks like it. I suspect you haven’t either. Consider this, ID photos must be taken without make up, with hair away from the face and no extra things that could hide identifying marks (hats and the like). I know Cis Woman who look nothing like their ID photos after the doll up for a night out.

      • I’m just going based on information at hand. When someone shows me an id, it’s up to my discretion to let them in or not. Once again it comes down to security reasons. I’ve worked many places where they have been raided, and the fines that the owners get from morons letting people in that don’t fit the requirements is insane . I think someone’s upset for getting kicked out so they want to retaliate.

      • uhhhhhhhhhh, except that’s not what occurred here, what with the confiscation, name-calling, disrespect, attempt to forcefully take phone, etc. Your attempt to divert the issue just failed. So Andi was underage? Didn’t “fit the requirements?”

      • Raided? For what? If you are talking about crackdowns on underage people drinking, that is one thing. But perhaps you need a lesson in the types of things you should be looking for in an ID and why. This instance obviously would not result in any fine for any crime should there be a “raid”. Now, if you are talking about a Stonewall type raid, that’s another ballgame and yet more lawsuits waiting to happen. I hope we have at least gotten past that (but nothing surprises me anymore).

      • My ID photo was taken 5 years ago and I had a different hair colour and cut, also different glasses and I wasn’t wearing makeup. Yet I don’t get denied entry when I produce it as ID and I’m wearing makeup. Nor do other women.
        You can continue to dissemble and pretend there is some kind of logic behind this assault and harassment of Andi, but not one person is buying it, mate.

      • Oh, SO not true, Brian. For one, people who are in transition carry a letter from their doctors for when they need to deal with fearful folk such as yourself. Also, people with brains can clearly see, even with makeup applied, that the person is still the person on the ID. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon, just a brain. Of course, the real issue here is that in this case, someone is in transition, and that fact was made apparent when SHE had to show HER ID, and the bouncers took the opportunity to be kindergarten bullies. I am sure that SHE did not exaggerate the assault AND BATTERY one bit. But witnesses will tell.

      • Unfortunatly the post dissappeared so I had assumed it had failed (poor internet in my area) and so I reposted. Secondaly, any intelligent restaurant would accecpt commerce from those that could pay. Whilst they may request that she dress smartly (and that doesn’t mean a male suit), they certainly shouldn’t bar her acces becasue she is Trans*. Also, 5 star restaurants don’t tend to have large aggressive bouncers, they tend to be more subtle (at least any I have seen).
        However, I will say thank you for not misgendering her as other commenters have done.

      • How dare you set him aside for honorary coronation as both medical doctor and dentist! Multi-faceted to say the least!

      • Ha ha ha! Born comedians have humor coming out of both nose and ear nostrils. i get a funny moment about every 4 years. I hope u didn’t lose any teeth when spittin’ out the coffee………..

      • Wrong. New York New York City Administrative Code § 8-101 to 8-103 guarantees that trans people won’t be discriminated against in public accommodations. The Irish Pub is on the wrong side of the civil law and when they laid hands on her while breaking civil law, they broke criminal laws. They assaulted her and denied her guaranteed civil protections.

        Curious. Why did you lie about working security there?

      • I have trans friends who have never had a problem getting into ANY pub or restaurant. Some of them were in transition and they did look different in make up than without, and their name was masculine on their ID still. And still, no problem at all. But then, the maitre d’ was not a prejudiced jerk in any of those cases. They were kind and professional.

      • Ok I’m not going to start throwing names out there but there’s 3 people involved In the owning of Irish times and I’ve done many nights doing the front door and the outside area in the back. I don’t need to prove a point to anyone.

      • Most excellent, Cristan. He’s just another troll. All my comments regarding the “security” who were actually there that night stand.

      • Bscott, you are a neanderthal. I wish it had been me who one of your “bouncers” tried to push against a wall…. Or whose ID or iPod you’d tried to steal. You have a lot to learn in this world. You can become a valuable member of the 21st century or, you can remain a neanderthal. But the minute you posted a comment the whole world saw you for what you are.

    • As Cristan states, you probably don’t do security there (oh the info site admins can obtain) but undoubtedly the pub and its “security” will find their way to this web site so allow me:

      I’ve “done law enforcement” for the state of CA and County of Los Angeles. If this story is correct as reported, someone will be crying all right, but it won’t be Andi. Being held accountable under law for violating someone’s civil rights in a criminal manner has caused many to shed a tear or more. Assuming the validity of this story, someone needs to let this “pub” know that discrimination is discrimination is discrimination, whether a customer/client is black, blue, brown like me, gay, straight even transgender. Private means “you get to keep the $”, not “you get to keep the riff raff” out. What riff raff? Well you know, them blacks, browns, gays and especially them transgenders right? Security personnel here were performing access control for a private establishment that despite being private, conditionally must abide by nondiscrimination statutes.

      I have worked countless places “doing security” while off duty and for this reason I will never “look down” at security work which at times is very dangerous. In fact many security officers lose their lives “doing security” every year. Still, again assuming the veracity here, if it “went down” as reported, aggression and all, throwing someone against a wall or concrete is not a defensive act unless preservation of life or injury is imminently required. It is beyond mere threatening, it is an offensive, violent act commonly called assault plain and simple. Also, what was it with denying access to management? The manager is always the client contact, and is to be contacted regarding any incident. Not notifying management, the incident supervisor always in charge of security ancillary staff, violates security requirements, as per licensing.

      Did security complete requirements per what is considered here in CA the “Business and Professions” code relating to “use of force” incidents? Are you guys state-licensed to perform security duties either as contracted or as proprietary (in-house) security officers? If so were the licenses valid or expired? Are you aware that a citizen is allowed to press “citizen’s arrest” charges for assault and battery, which a police officer typically is required to accept? Are you aware that “use of force” incidents such as this, if found to have occurred, can form the basis of a complaint to the NY licensing body (security) such that licenses are and can be revoked? Are you aware that if any two persons agree to violate the rights of another civilly or criminally this is fulfills the requirements of “conspiracy”?

      Oh, by the way I’ve also “done law enforcement” for the United States Air Force. My last rank? Sgt. at 21, Staff Sgt at 23.

    • Perhaps you should do it well? That might class it up a bit more.

      Bigotry does tend to lower the tone of most places. The young lady appears quite presentable and well behaved. One assumes that the color of her money is the same as yours.

      Funny old world, isn’t it? It wasn’t all that long go that my grandfather from Leitrim was confronted by idiots with “No Irish” signs.

      plus ca change

    • HAHAHAHAHA! Yeah, bigots are SO classy. The woman you manhandled looks WAY classier than you imbred juice head thugs. It’s easy to call other people “crying” when you are a “big man” shoving around women. Tell your pals they are a bunch of pansy ass bitches for me.

  6. And it’s for security reasons that you were given a hard time in regards to your id. If your photo looks nothing like you, your not getting in!

      • Andy, as a former cop, Bscott, as we all know by now, has NO idea what he is talking about. He’s just a bigoted troll. As Cristen and others have pointed out, your case has NOTHING to do with “security reasons”. You are not underage and you obviously posed no risk to anyone. You are totally correct. It is no coincidence. And apparently, those who WERE actually working for this pub (as opposed to Brian) have no idea what they are doing AND are bigoted adam henry’s.

  7. Most of us wouldn’t want you to either so don’t feel alone. We understand the safety concerns, however the story here reveals she didn’t even get a chance to even go there, whatever the “there” is you’re referring to. I never go to gay bars, because they are for gay persons, which is a different kind of establishment than trans bars. Frankly I typically don’t go to bars, except on very rare occasions.

    Besides she has been going there for over a decade. The bigger issue is the rejection of state-issued ID which would apply to you also if you were denied entry into your favorite bar. So it effects everyone with an ID, not only gay or trans. But I do find your disagreement refreshing, in that you kept it civil.

    • its understandable the establishment should feel that way if he looks completely different from the state id. Perhaps it may be better for him to goto a regular place as a guy and then dress up as a girl when he goes into those trans or gay bars where they are more accommodating of people looking completely different or even a different sex as stated on their license.

      • Why are you on a website for Trans* people and their allies when you are clearly neither? You misgender Andi and ascert that she should not go into “normal” bars because you might “confuse” her with a lady. Andi is a woman (notice she posted and did not correct the author’s use of female pronouns?) and has every right to go to a “normal” bar as anyone else. You are suggesting segregation based upon gender identity, which is just horrible.

      • Maybe cause he’s talking about the bar? Read the comment fully and the meaning of the post before you start replying with stupid comments

      • “You misgender Andi” refers to ” if he looks completely different” where johnstrongisland is clearly refering to Andi.

        “and ascert that she should not go into “normal” bars” and “segregation based upon gender identity” refers to “may be better for him to goto a regular place as a guy and then dress up as a girl when he goes into those trans or gay bars” which does indeed suggest segregation or go home.

        ” you might “confuse” her with a lady” refers to johnstrongisland’s origional comment.
        It would appear you did not clearly understand what was being said. Also, calling the oppositions comment “stupid” does not garner you any points in a serious discussion.

      • It is. If you don’t think it is, maybe you shouldn’t be here. But people are dying because they are different from other people. Maybe Andi did take it too far. I don’t know. I don’t frequent this place and with good reason, so I didn’t see. But my issue isn’t even with Andi or Irish Times and who is right or wrong here, but with people who seem to ooze testosterone and act like they’re ‘badass’ because they run ‘security’ at a bar. Any classy establishment wouldn’t need bouncers to begin with.

        This is coming from a straight non transgender woman who supports equal rights for all.

      • Andi, I’m not saying you did. I’m simply stating that I wasn’t there, so I can’t speak from experience. The one thing I CAN say is that place is a dive. I hate that place. If they got physical for no reason, then they are the ones who took it too far. My entire point here is that too many people are being hurt simply because they are viewed as different and that, at the end of the day, is the problem and this needs to stop now.

      • Something occurred to me after I logged off last night. How does this place handle Halloween parties?

      • Probably in the same way they might handle clothing-optional parties……not. I hope whatever occurred to you last night wasn’t too bad 😉

      • I have been there the last few years for Halloween and St. Patty’s Day and have had no issues. The establishment is a nice place. The owners, bartenders and waitresses are the nicest people and half of Holbrook frequents this establishment. Yes there have been people thrown out due to fights and whatnot, but in the 12 years I have been going there, I have never seen any violence from a bouncer. Maybe Andi is not giving the full picture of what happened. Maybe the bouncer told her she could not come in due to the fact that he did not believe it was her on her driver’s license. She could have gotten violent with the bouncer and they don’t have to take that crap from anyone. I know most of the bouncers and they do their job and I have never seen a mean bouncer in that place. So I think that you all should rethink tainting a staple on the community when you don’t go there at all and you really don’t know the people there and what they do for the community. Also, Mr. Bscott, I think you should stop talking to these people. You may incriminate yourself. Also, why do you end every sentence with “LOL”. Enough said.

      • Let me start out by correcting something you just said. Half of Holbrook does NOT frequent this place. If you like it, go for it. It’s still a dive. But hey! Whatever makes your night. One more thing: Who are you referring to with this quote:

        ” Also, why do you end every sentence with “LOL”. Enough said.”

      • I am referring to BScott the bouncer…he puts a LOL at the end of every sentence and it’s very annoying. I don’t think the place is a dive. It has good food and friendly staff and it’s just like an old Irish Pub setting. I don’t know what kind of places you frequent, but this is a cozy place and It’s clean. I’m just annoyed because of all the bashing everyone is doing toward the pub. Just because an altercation occurred with a bouncer and another person, for reasons we personally do not know is true, doesn’t make the place a bad place. They have a good reputation and there are a lot of new younger people going there now, so I guess it’s okay if the younger crowd is headed in every Friday and Saturday night.

      • Now I see why you hide behind a silhouette. I guess if I went to a web site and began to say things like: “Irish times is a classy place and should stay that way”…….”quit your crying”…….”Lol”………”I’m glad you can put 2 and 2 together”……”she would get turned down”…..calling her a “HE”……”stupid comments”……”this is a serious discussion…lol….”

        I guess if I engaged in hide, hit, run for my life comments, I would remain in hiding also. May I remind you that you can disagree all you wish, but treating others without dignity, especially while afraid earns you the following:

        a security escort to the —————————————>>>>>>[[EXIT]]

      • So well said. This old maxim is true and both Bscott and johnstrongisland would do well to remember it:

        “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak (or start typing) and remove all doubt.”

      • This means that your ID even shows you as female correct?—although doesn’t matter because dressing up isn’t illegal. Not sure about NY but here in CA, DMV will update IDs with updated sex marker after medically transitioning (hormones) and with an MD approving it.

      • That they will. My best friend’s former brother now sister had the procedures done and her driver’s license was updated and that was that. No one gave her a problem. Seriously, I think it’s just this place. It’s a sports bar of sorts and where the uh…”Manly” men go to hang out and be..well…manly, I suppose. It is my hope that one day these ‘manly’ men will truly discover that manliness is a hell of a lot more than hormones.

        Take “johnstongisland” for example. It’s painfully obvious by his name alone that he thinks he is every female’s dream, yet he needs to go to a bar and find women who have been drinking for any hope of attention. Odds are, though, he goes home drunk and alone, or maybe ends up in a 24 hour diner with BScott whining drunkenly that no one loves him.

      • I’m still trying to get that picture you painted about a medical and dental doctor out of my head, darn you! BS Scott was way out of line and “spoke words likely to result in a tongue-lashing” rebuking and got just that. This is different that rebuking someone merely cuz of disagreement.

        Here in CA, the minimum proof of medical procedure required is a form signed by an MD verifying a medical transition (hormones), a call the MD will make. About the bar, I rarely drink, although beer and liqueur can state good, primarily because I have never ever understood the reason behind losing control of one’s senses, however if that’s what it takes for some folk to survive, oh well.

        There is a lot of pain in this world and boy do I know that myself, having reached what I thought was my limit, and yes some people truly live a life of melancholy and pity. I read that you are a “cis” ter and an ally, not trans. If so, my heart skips a beat every time I learn that a “cis” ter is standing up for us. This means much, much more than you can ever truly know.

        Laylla, you prove the fact that once “someone gets to know one of us” (your best-friend’s former brother), they not only back off from spinning sense into nonsense, but become allies, just as occurred with the LGB. Often, I want to stop writing here and refuting those who are against us for nonsensical reasons, but you encourage me to keep on with the good fight.

      • My rules of living are simple: Love your fellow man or woman, take care of those who need it, (this applies to two four legged creatures), give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they remove all doubt, respect others until given a reason not to, and treat everyone as an equal regardless of race, gender identification, religious or sexual preference. I won’t claim to understand how it feels to be born the wrong gender or how it feels to be gay, because I’m neither of these things. But I don’t have to understand it, I just need to accept that it is part of life just like having blonde hair or brown eyes.

        I will always be supportive of those who have had to fight to gain equal rights in this world, because these are the people who have learned to love unconditionally.
        <3

      • HER, not he or him, her. As for your fear, don’t be too assured of you ability to get with someone.

      • Get over yourself, johnstrongisland, lol. I doubt you’d get hit on anyway, and if you did, you should consider it a compliment. But with any of us, the minute you opened your mouth you’d likely find yourself standing alone again. This is not about you.

  8. The assault began the moment he went from words to contact. Undoubtedly NY’s criminal/penal code includes a crime of “battery” or similar which is unlawful physical contact. Based on your comment below, you + others were the recipients of unlawful physical contact as well, the result of aggression, making them victims. When he came at you, assuming facts of course, in a threatening manner (indicated by facial expressions, tone of voice, aggression, words spoken) and with the ability to inflict injury (size of aggressor plus use of the wall), it satisfies the elements of assault: thus the term “assault and battery”.

    Battery: contact unwelcomed
    Assault: action deemed as threatening, with the aggressor having the “present ability” to inflict injury.

    This is far more than mere discrimination of course. Regardless of the sad fact that police usually shake things off, go make a counter report to at least underscore the seriousness of the incident. Most critical are independent observers (witnesses), who can paint a word picture of the chronology to include times, names, contact info because they are essentially unbiased human cameras.. Video if any would be gold. Your family members, due to related bias, would be victims of at least battery, but not have the crucial unbiased credibility of independent witnesses.

    Remember that in most states, like here in CA, battery and simple assault are considered misdemeanors, meaning if the officer didn’t witness it, the most they can do is complete a report. On the other hand, a citizen in CA reserves the right to directly press charges against an assailant, which by law, unless it has changed, the officer is required to accept the charges which absolves them of liability of course.

    Get all the “horsepower” (location details, chronology details, employer details of bouncers if separate, names, etc. vehicle info if known)……..in short write a detailed chronological report so that the reader is “at the scene” and knows exactly what has occurred. If the police are still recalcitrant, or not, contact transgenderlegal.org to ensure the District Attorney is involved, perhaps directly if necessary.

    Remember, you weren’t passing off a fake ID, that really was you and still it was rejected. No one has the legal right to, short of accidental of course, make physical contact with another particularly in a threatening manner. Clearly though, actual enforcement is out of our hands which is why it’s critical to work with a trans group, perhaps ACLU to follow up.

    Also, taking someone’s property (ID) without permission is theft, particularly since they retained possession of it such that it had to be recovered. They also attempted to steal your phone. Of note is also the fact that the wall was used as a weapon against your body and the vandalism that did occur (broken door).

    Based on the veracity, we have violations involving both civil law and criminal law. If these are the facts, both come into play. Remember that it is not unusual for unscrupulous persons to counter charge with their own fake charges, which must always be anticipated. This makes the independent witnesses crucial here, especially the one that recovered your stolen ID. Don’t let go of this because by attacking you, they attack all of us.

  9. Apparently this is not an isolated incident. Another negative review was posted 3 weeks ago. I’ll be looking into legal action tomorrow:

    “In my 12 yrs of going to Irish times I have never been so angry. Every time I come home (living in AZ now), Irish times has always been the stomping grounds for a reunion with my friends; but not anymore. A scuffle broke out outside, n despite my understanding that a bouncer needs to do his due diligence to maintain safety in the bar, it is NOT ok with me for him to shove 3 innocent bystanders out of his way to get where he needs to go; ESPECIALLY when those 3 people were my pregnant wife, my sister, n my mother. I have seen bouncers B-line their way out of bars to stop a fight, but never to unnecessarily push 3 women 1/10 his size to get where he needs to go. RIP Irish times, for I won’t ever set foot in your establishment again.”

  10. I grew up not far from this town. It’s in Suffolk County, NY. This county did pass trans inclusive nondiscrim legislation years ago. It’s fully inclusive of public accommodations.

    This county is on Long Island – heading out from Manhattan on the physical island you go Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau & last Suffolk. The last two not being part of NYC. I haven’t lived there in decades, but still have a lot of family there. If memory serves; Suffolk has something like 1.2 million residents?

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